Justice Committee on June 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 69 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108, the committee is meeting to study the subject matter of the main estimates for 2023-24.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. As all members have previously used this, I will not go through the Zoom procedures.

I would like to inform the members that, since the main estimates were deemed reported to the House, at the latest, on May 31, and per Standing Order 81(4), their order of reference is no longer in front of the committee. We are still able to study the subject matter of the main estimates, but we can't vote on the various items under the Department of Justice.

I would now like to welcome our first witness. Appearing today is the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. Welcome.

Before he begins, I also want to mention that we have Shalene Curtis-Micallef, deputy minister and deputy attorney general of Canada; Michael Sousa, senior assistant deputy minister, policy sector; and Bill Kroll, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister, management sector. Welcome.

Do we have Elizabeth Hendy? Is she online? Maybe not.

The floor is yours, Minister. You have 10 minutes for opening remarks and, as usual, questions from the members.

[David Lametti, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, colleagues.

Thank you for the invitation to be here today. I'm pleased to be here as the committee studies the 2023-24 main estimates for the Department of Justice.

I would like to begin, as I always do, and importantly, by acknowledging that we're located on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe Nation.

I am joined, as you mentioned, Mr. Chair, by my officials: the deputy minister of justice, Shalene Curtis-Micallef; the chief financial officer, Bill Kroll; and the senior assistant deputy minister, Mike Sousa. Thanks to all of you for being here today in support.

Committee members will note that Justice Canada is seeking a total of $987.6 million in the 2023-24 main estimates, an increase of $65.8 million over the previous fiscal year.

We need a justice system that is accessible, efficient and, above all, fair. Canadians deserve to feel and be safe. Our justice system must live up to their trust. Our government is committed to ensuring that this is the case, and we will continue to honour our Charter, which is the pride of all Canadians.

Reconciliation with Aboriginal peoples is a crucial part of my mandate, in particular the implementation of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act.

We are currently working—very hard, I might add—in consultation and co-operation with first nations, Inuit and Métis, including national indigenous organizations, rights holders, modern treaty signatories and self-governing nations, to release an action plan and an annual report this month, as mandated in the act.

The work to ensure that the federal laws of Canada are consistent with the UN declaration is ongoing. This declaration represents transformational change and has the potential to progressively and positively transform the relationship between the Crown and first nations, Inuit and Métis.

In budget 2022, our government announced additional funding to implement the UN declaration act in the amount of $64 million over five years—from 2022-23 to 2026-27—and $11 million ongoing. In the 2023-24 main estimates, we're seeking $17.5 million as part of this commitment.

The Main Estimates also include an additional $7 million for new drug treatment court supervised programs, as well as the expansion of existing programs. These investments are part of our efforts to help those suffering from addiction, especially the most marginalized and vulnerable. Our government believes in an approach based on prevention and addiction treatment to tackle the causes of crime. We will continue to implement evidence- and science-based policies, including drug courts.

Access to justice is a fundamental Canadian value and an integral part of a just society. We know that too many Canadians face systemic barriers when trying to obtain legal services or interact with the courts. Aboriginal, Black and racialized Canadians are over-represented in our criminal justice system. That's why it's particularly important to invest in measures that facilitate access to justice, whether by providing information or support, through renewed funding for legal aid in criminal matters.

Our commitment to fighting discrimination and systemic racism in our institutions goes further. As I mentioned earlier, our justice system is not immune to the insidious mechanisms that stand between our system and truly just justice.

That's why I'm proud to have passed Bill C-5 last November, repealing mandatory minimums that have contributed to the overincarceration of indigenous people, Black persons and members of marginalized communities.

I've also introduced David and Joyce Milgaard's law to advance our work to build a more equitable justice system. It would establish an independent miscarriage of justice review commission to make it simpler and more efficient for potentially wrongfully convicted people to have their applications reviewed. I hope this committee has the opportunity to study this legislation soon. Budget 2023 announced $83.9 million over five years, starting in 2023-24, and $18.7 million ongoing for the commission.

I've also proposed targeted reforms to bail to make our communities safer and build trust in our justice system. Bill C-48 is designed to focus on violent repeat offenders and gun and knife violence, as well as intimate partner violence. This targeted reform to our bail laws is the product of collaboration with the provinces and territories. It has also benefited from input from mayors, police and parliamentarians, as well as indigenous leadership and the legal community.

Everyone in Canada expects us to tackle crime, as well as the causes of crime. Bill C-48 is part of our broader strategy to ensure the safety of all Canadians, and it is an example of what we can achieve when we work together. The bill is charter-compliant, and I'm proud to be a member of the party of the charter. It has been endorsed by provincial and territorial governments, as well as various police organizations across Canada. I look forward to working in particular with my colleagues around this table to advance this legislation quickly to protect Canadians.

The main estimates also seek funding to support other key initiatives to help build a fairer and more accessible justice system and advance the national action plan to end gender-based violence, supporting victims of intimate partner violence. The Mass Casualty Commission in Nova Scotia laid out the importance of addressing gender-based violence, and this action plan will help support our government's work going forward.

I'm pleased to say that budget 2023 announced $95.8 million over five years, starting in 2023-24, and $20.4 million ongoing per year thereafter to support indigenous families in accessing information about their missing or murdered loved ones. These include funding for FILUs, as well as the community support and healing for families initiative and more indigenous-led victim services and supports, which I was proud to announce last week. This investment represents an end to the cycle of temporary funding for these services and ensures that sustainable support is available for these critical resources.

On that note, Mr. Chair, I will wrap up my remarks. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about how we are making our justice system stronger, more accessible and more inclusive for all people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Minister Lametti.

We'll go to our first round of questions, beginning with Mr. Moore. I believe he'll be sharing some time with Mr. Brock.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Yes. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for sharing your time here today with us at the justice committee.

Minister, you mentioned Bill C-5, which eliminated mandatory jail time for what I would categorize as serious firearms offences, including serious offences around the trafficking, importation and production of schedule I and schedule II drugs.

I'll also mention Bill C-75, which was brought in by your government and which instituted the principle of restraint, meaning that individuals facing pretrial custody are given the least onerous provisions possible. That has been interpreted very broadly, and now we see what I would categorize as a revolving door to our justice system and an increase in the number of recidivists who are being caught by police and committing subsequent crimes even while out on release.

Just last week, I was reading that the Winnipeg Police Service has announced that the city is experiencing the highest level of violent crime in over a decade. They have reported that violent crime was up 25% last year compared to 2021, and another 17% over the five-year average—all types of crime, particularly violent crime. There's a significant uptick in Winnipeg.

I would look at that as a signal that we're doing some things wrong, and that we have to address violent repeat offenders and we have to address recidivism. I put it to you: How do you take these stats coming out of Winnipeg, and are you concerned? We know that we've had a 32% increase in violent crime over the last eight years. Do you feel that when Juristat and StatsCan publish their findings later this year we're going to see an uptick across the country in violent crime, as is being seen in Winnipeg?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Moore, for your question.

Let me first correct the record, because there were a number of factual errors that you made in the set-up of your question.

We didn't institute the principle of restraint in Bill C-75. We took it from the Supreme Court of Canada, which announced it in the Antic case before that. There's a long history of the principle of restraint in Canadian law. Bail is a charter-protected right, and we have the presumption of innocence, which is part of the long-standing common law tradition of criminal law that we have in Canada, which we inherited from the British legal tradition, so—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Minister, I only have limited time.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

We have—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I have really limited time.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Look, Mr. Moore—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

You were saying that something was factually incorrect.

You brought in Bill C-75, and now you're saying it didn't do anything.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

All we did in Bill C-75 was incorporate the principle of restraint in the law formally. It was already in the law informally.

Now, of course, statistics about crime increases concern me—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

So Bill C-75 didn't do anything.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

It did not change the law of Canada on that point, Mr. Moore—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Minister, I'm sorry, but we have had witnesses come to this committee who said that Bill C-75 had a profound impact—

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

They're making a mistake on this particular point, Mr. Moore. It didn't introduce anything new to Canadian law.

If I may finish my answer, of course, I'm concerned about a statistical increase in crimes. We'll get a better picture when Statistics Canada and other statistics-gathering organisms give us those statistics.

We've come through a pandemic. We've come through economic uncertainty. We're in the middle of a mental health crisis, in part brought on by the pandemic. This isn't completely unexpected. What we have to do, as legislators, is react to that. Bill C-48 is part of the reaction to that with respect to repeat violent offenders with weapons.

As I said in my opening remarks, we've worked hard with police authorities and with provinces. There is widespread support for the bill across Canada, with the NDP in British Columbia, the Conservative government in Ontario and other governments across—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I'm sorry, Minister, but I'm sharing my time with Mr. Brock.

I will say very quickly that to ascribe no fault for the uptick in violent crime to your own policies, which have been discredited at this committee by witnesses, police and premiers.... I think we need to take the blinders off. We need to look at the impact that the policies you are putting in place are having on this uptick in violent crime.

We have very limited time. I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Welcome, Minister Lametti.

I want to talk about access to justice. You've often heard this phrase—it's been bantered around for as long as I've been a lawyer—“Justice delayed is justice denied.” We know that. It's ripped from the headlines and from the chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada. He is calling for the speedy appointment of more judges in a letter that he penned directly to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

In the wake of that particular letter, you told reporters in Ottawa that you understand the problem posed by the vacancies: “I understand the problem. I’m working very hard with people across the country to make this system work.” We have 90 judicial vacancies across this country, 24 of which are in the province of Ontario—civil cases and criminal cases. What do you say to Canadians, victims, defendants, and other judges, who are now facing an extra burden with their caseloads? What do you mean by “I'm working very hard”?

I'm sorry, Minister, but that's not good enough. What is your plan to fill those vacancies?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

First of all, Mr. Brock, we're down to 79 already, since you got your last statistics.

I have appointed judges at a faster pace than any justice minister in Canadian history. As a government, we have appointed judges at a pace faster than any clip in Canadian history. We will continue to do that moving forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

We'll now go to Ms. Diab for six minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome back, Minister.

Let's talk about access to justice for a moment. You talked about that in your remarks. Access to justice is a subject that is very important and dear to me. In 2014, in Nova Scotia, we set up the Nova Scotia access to justice co-ordinating committee, which was co-chaired by the then minister of justice and also by the then chief justice of Nova Scotia.

Of course, meaningful access to justice for all Canadians, particularly Black and racialized Canadians, is something that I take to heart, as I know you do. I represent many distinct African Nova Scotian communities and racialized communities in Halifax West.

Aside from appointing judges, which is one small aspect of it, can you please tell me what the federal government is doing and what your office is doing to improve access to justice in the country?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you very much for that question.

Access to justice is one of my priorities. One of the first things I did—and this is also partly in response to Mr. Brock's question—was to add 115 new superior court positions across Canada over the last number of years, with budgets that have increased the judicial complement in order to help the system of justice.

We have worked on increasing funding for legal aid—in particular, criminal legal aid, which is critically important. We have realized that it will simply require many more resources with respect to legal aid. An additional $60 million is being invested this year, in 2023-24, again increasing the amount of money we're investing in legal aid a great deal.

We're also working with Black leadership across Canada on the elaboration of a Black justice strategy. We have nine experts from across Canada who are taking in information from previous reports and filling in gaps on their own, and they will report to us by the end of the year in terms of how we can better address the systemic racism against Black and racialized people in our criminal justice system.

Those are just a number of examples that are particularly pertinent to your province of Nova Scotia, but I can assure you that we are working across the country in order to increase access to justice.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you for that. I'm certainly familiar with your work with Black leadership across the country and the great things that have been done and will continue to be done there.

Can you please tell us about the goal of creating an independent justice review commission and your recent introduction of Bill C-40?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you very much. Again, that's something that's very near and dear to my heart. I fought to get that provision in my mandate letter in 2019 and to get it repeated in my mandate letter in 2021.

It is simply the case that it is too hard in Canada to have wrongful convictions reviewed. I see, on average, just over one a year in my office, and yet there are so many more examples that have happened. It doesn't serve anybody to keep innocent people in jail. It serves absolutely nobody. It doesn't serve victims. It doesn't serve the criminal justice system, and it doesn't serve people's confidence in the criminal justice system.

Every single ex post facto report over the last 30 years in Canada that has looked at a wrongful conviction or a series of wrongful convictions has recommended an independent commission, which is more effective, more efficient and less costly and takes the final decision-making out of the hands of the minister. That is precisely what this commission has done. It has been well received by experts across Canada in the domain, who see it as something that's long overdue.

The U.K. has had one for 25 years, and Scotland has a separate one. It has resulted in more people getting their convictions reviewed, with much less time and effort, and much less cost.

This is something that will serve Canadians well, and it will actually reinforce confidence in the justice system. I was proud to bring that bill forward. I'm hoping that this committee will study it soon. We hope it is on the list of priorities that our House leader annunciates before rising and that the bill gets to this committee. I hope that this committee will then do a proper study on it in order to bring it forth as soon as possible.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

I, too, look forward to having that in front of us.

Chair, can you tell me if I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

You have about 20 seconds.