Evidence of meeting #80 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was paramedics.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Justin Mausz  Advanced Care Paramedic & Scientist, Peel Regional Paramedic Services
Paul Hills  President of the Saskatoon Paramedics Association, International Association of Fire Fighters
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Sophia Nickel
Elizabeth Donnelly  Associate Professor, School of Social Work, University of Windsor, As an Individual

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin (Rivière-du-Nord, BQ)) Bloc Rhéal Fortin

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 80 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

You're all in luck today to have a member of the Bloc Québécois chairing the meeting.

Pursuant to the House order of June 21, 2023, the committee is meeting to begin its study of Bill C‑321, an act to amend the Criminal Code (assaults against health care professionals and first responders).

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members participating remotely must use the Zoom application.

I have a few reminders for the benefit of the witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. If you are participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and put yourself on mute when you are not speaking.

If you are on Zoom, you can access the interpretation by clicking the button on your screen. You have the choice of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

A reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the raise hand function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

The clerk has advised me that the three members on Zoom have successfully completed the sound checks, so Mr. Garrison, Mr. Moore and Mr. Housefather. However, if there are any issues with the audio, please let me know and I will suspend the meeting so we can get them fixed.

I would now like to welcome Mr. Doherty, the member for Cariboo—Prince George and sponsor of Bill C‑321. He will be with us for the first hour of our meeting.

Mr. Doherty, you will have five minutes for opening remarks, and then, we will go to the first round. Each party will have six minutes in the first round. In the second round, the Conservatives and Liberals will have five minutes each, and the Bloc Québécois and NDP will have two and a half minutes each. After that, we will meet with another panel for the second hour.

Mr. Doherty, please go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I might, before my time starts, I would like to first offer our colleague, Mr. Housefather, condolences. I overheard his sound test, and if I heard him correctly, he has just come back from attending a funeral of a constituent who lost her life in the original Hamas attack on October 7. Through you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to offer my condolences to him.

I also would like to send my heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of the victims of the horrible mass shooting that took place in Lewiston, Maine, as well as the first responders—hundreds of first responders who attended and witnessed horrible events, who are out searching for the shooter. Some of them I know personally, as I was just informed prior to this testimony.

Also, Mr. Chair, through you, I would like to offer to my colleagues—I know we are starting late—that we have witnesses with lived experiences, and the reality is that we're here to hear them, not me. If any testimony is to be cut short because we are starting late, if there is any time to be cut short, I wish it to be mine, so that we give our witnesses the full hour for you to hear truly why this bill is so important.

I'll leave that with you and the committee, Mr. Chair, and with that, I'll start.

Mr. Chair and committee members, guests and fellow witnesses, I want to thank you for the invitation to speak to my private member's bill, Bill C-321.

You've probably all heard me say this before, but it bears repeating today. In my mind, real heroes don't wear capes. They wear arm patches that say "paramedic", "nurse", "firefighter", "police officer", "corrections". They're our brothers, our sisters, daughters, families, family friends and neighbours. They leave their houses each and every day knowing there is a very real possibility that they may never come home.

When others run from danger, they run towards it. They run into burning buildings, they run towards gunfire. They have our backs at our most desperate moments. They hold our hand when we take our last breath. They're on the other end of the line when we mutter our last words. They're on the front lines taking care of us, making sure that we get the help we need when we need it.

Often, their service comes at great sacrifice to themselves. They are true heroes, in every sense of the word, and they need to know that we have their backs.

How far we have fallen where it has become okay to hunt police officers or paramedics, to hurt a nurse when they're simply trying to take our blood.

Mr. Chair and colleagues, in the last year alone, we've lost 11 police officers, 11 brave men and women who were only trying to do their jobs, who were there to serve and protect us. They gave their lives in service to each of us.

The police have their own section of the Criminal Code that deals with assaults and makes it an aggravating factor for sentencing. It is the same code as for transit operators. But sadly, paramedics, nurses, firefighters, frontline health care workers, don't have the same protections. They deserve the same protections. Firefighters, first responders, do not have the right to refuse dangerous work.

Mr. Chair, there have been a number of studies that have shown an increase in the types of incidents of violence against our health care workers. The Canadian federation of nurses' discussion paper, “Enough is Enough Putting a Stop to Violence in the Health Care Sector”, clearly lays out the need for legislation such as this.

The number of violence-related loss claims for frontline health care workers has increased by almost 66% over the past decade. Two-thirds of nurses report considering or wanting to leave their jobs due to the threat of violence they face each and every day.

I recently visited a hospital and had a supervisor come to my side in tears to thank me for putting this bill forward. She told me the story of a nurse in her charge who was recently thrown to the floor and kicked by a patient.

This bill was born out of the countless stories that I, and well all, have heard. Far too often, violent attacks against paramedics, nurses and firefighters go unreported. They go unpunished. How many times do these incidents go unreported? How many times does someone say to themselves, “It's not that big of a deal, it's not worth reporting, it won't matter anyway”?

We need to stop the complacency. We need to stop violence in the workplace. We need people to know that it's never acceptable and it's not part of their job.

Some time ago I received a message from a paramedic who was simply responding to, by all accounts, a routine 911 call. When they tried to help, they were thrown down a flight of stairs. They were viciously stomped. Their ankles were broken and their arms were broken.

There's the story about the Ottawa paramedic who was punched in the stomach so hard that it left an open wound, and also kicked in the groin when trying to lift a patient off the floor.

Julie was sexually assaulted in the back of an ambulance, and then told it wasn't worth prosecuting because the assailant would never get convicted or, if they were, it would be a slap on the wrist.

What about the Saskatoon paramedic who was punched in the face with a closed fist and suffered a concussion and was encouraged to drop the charges because his assailant was going to anger management classes?

What about Jennifer? She is a paramedic who was attacked on New Year's Eve by an intoxicated man as she tried to help him onto a stretcher outside of a bar and was then told that the Crown was dropping the charges because her injuries weren't sufficient for a conviction. What message does that send to our frontline personnel?

Alex was attempting to help an intoxicated teenage female in the back of an ambulance who then broke free from restraints and heel-kicked him in the face before punching him repeatedly.

Crystal is a nurse who was walking down a corridor when a patient being pushed in a wheelchair from the opposite direction lunged from the chair and attacked her without warning.

These are just a few of the stories that have touched my life. These stories are why this bill needs to pass.

I know that my bill is not the be-all and end-all, but it's another tool in the box and it forces the justice system to look seriously at these crimes. Simply put, Mr. Chair, Bill C-321 would act as a deterrent and save lives. The bill has brought support from many first responders.

I'm proud to say that the IAFF is here. We have members from the Peel Regional Paramedic Services. As a matter of fact, we have representation from the IAFF from Washington, DC. That's why this bill is so important.

Mr. Chair, I'll cede the floor.

I'm ready for any questions you may have.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin

Thank you, Mr. Doherty, for your presentation.

We will now begin the first round.

Mr. Van Popta will start things off with six minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Doherty, it's a real honour to have you here as a witness today. It's always great to have one of our colleagues present draft legislation. Thank you for the work you're doing.

I think this is a very important piece of legislation. If passed, it will certainly send a very strong message to our health care workers that Canada's Parliament has their back, as you say.

I have a couple of specific questions.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

All right.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

First of all, your bill would amend section 269 of the Criminal Code—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

That's correct.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

—to require judges to take into consideration, when sentencing, a person who is convicted of assaulting a health care worker.

I notice that in your draft bill, you do not actually have a definition for “health care professional” or “first responder”. I wonder if there was a reason for that, if you wanted to keep it more general, or if you think the bill would be improved by having a clear definition.

I would say that your legislation mirrors legislation that already exists relating to offences against public transit workers, and there is a definition for “public transit workers”.

Why is there not a definition?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I take that comment to heart; I understand it, and I agree. I'm at the will and whim of the committee, if they so choose.

I had the same conversation with our colleague from the NDP regarding “health care professional” and “health care worker”, and I'm amenable to these changes, if they are needed.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Do you have any proposed language for a definition, or is this something we should ask the experts?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

We actually do have legislation on that.

It's interesting. When we first dealt with my other bill, Bill C-211, “first responder” actually wasn't defined in Canadian legislation. Through our work, we managed to get that defined to a certain extent.

A first responder can be police, fire, ambulance, corrections, nurse or emergency room personnel. We can get you the definitions. I'll submit to the House that we'll get you the definitions by the end of tomorrow.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Good. Thank you very much. That would be helpful.

I also notice that your draft legislation covers assault, death and bodily harm, assault with a weapon and aggravated assault, but it does not include sexual assault. Was that also an oversight, or is there a specific reason for that?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

That's a great question. Again, I think we'll leave it to the experts. If the committee so chooses—we definitely heard from first responders, especially paramedics or nurses, that there is that as well—then absolutely.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Good.

Now, you've said that your bill, if it becomes law, will definitely make a difference in protecting health care workers and in perhaps even preventing death. Do you have statistics that we could look at?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

We do. We'll send those to you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Yes, please send that. Is it Canadian data?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

It's Canadian data. The Canadian Nurses Association as well as the B.C. nurses association have submitted documents to us on that—reports on that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Good. Thank you.

I have just one more question. I'll go back to existing Criminal Code section 269.01, which is similar to your proposed legislation but refers to transit workers. That has been with us for some time. Do you know if that has actually made a difference in sentencing when the assault was against a transit worker? What positive effect might we expect from your draft bill when it comes to sentencing?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

That's a good question. I guess what you're simply asking is, what's the result if we do nothing?

I think rather than asking me that question, you should ask the other witnesses who are here. Whether it's the IAFF, the B.C. nurses association, the Canadian Nurses Association, the police chiefs of Canada or our frontline forces, they have all come on board and said that this bill is needed to send a clear message that as legislators we value the service and the sacrifice of our frontline personnel, and we will not tolerate any acts of violence against them.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Good. Thank you very much.

I believe I'm out of time.

4 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin

You have a minute and 15 seconds left, but you can yield the floor, if you wish. That's fine.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

I have just one quick question, then.

Going back to statistics and data, has there been a negative trend in the last couple of years, and to what would you attribute that? Might the pandemic have something to do with it, or the opioid overdose crisis? Are these factors?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I think with the prevalence of social media, these reports are becoming more and more noticeable. We're seeing it more often. Obviously, we're just coming out of a pandemic, where people were locked up and where people were frustrated and angry. There just seems to be....

I don't know what it is, honestly. I'm at a loss for words. As I said in my opening remarks, when did it all of a sudden become okay to strike a nurse who was trying to take your blood? When did it become okay to hunt and target paramedics, or the firefighters who are simply trying to fight a fire?

To your question, it sure seems that in the last two to three years there has been an increase in this. When you talk to our witnesses who are here, I think you'll hear the same.

4 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

Mrs. Brière, you may go ahead for six minutes.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Doherty, for being here today to discuss the bill.

We worked together when I was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, so I understand how sensitive you are to this issue.

The preamble to the bill says that assaults on health care professionals and first responders have both a physical and a psychological impact.

Do you have any data on that impact? Are health care professionals and first responders assaulted at higher rates than workers in other fields?