Justice Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Paul Hills]

Yes, exactly.

If I may say, there's the moment I talked about of our being a health care worker on our day off. It is embedded in us to respond to situations we come across. If I'm in plain clothes and something happens, I'm going to do something.

Now, for that person, is it fair to them? They don't know I'm a paramedic. If they decide to stab me, they're going to get it worse, but the reality, again, is that I'm putting myself in this situation because it's born and bred into me and into my other colleagues—firefighters, health care professionals—to put ourselves in those situations, unlike a different cross-section of the population.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Yes.

I have only a few seconds left. Do you think this bill—and thank you very much, Mr. Doherty—will increase the number of people who do report because they feel there are actual consequences for what happens?

That's for either one of you.

[Paul Hills]

Absolutely: Knowing that people care about us and are doing something to make our jobs better is what we need right now. A pot and a pan on a front step is great—I need someone to do something to make my job better. Right now, we're losing paramedics at an alarming rate, and nurses and other health care workers. The threat is real. We need to fix it. Address it now.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you agree, Dr. Mausz?

[Dr. Justin Mausz]

Yes, because it sends a signal that we take this problem seriously.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for giving me a few extra seconds, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Mr. Garrison is okay for today. I'm going to give the last two minutes to Monsieur Fortin.

You can have two and a half minutes. I'm generous.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a simple question for the witnesses.

I talked about this with Mr. Doherty earlier. Bill C‑321 would require courts hearing these cases to consider as an aggravating circumstance the fact that the person assaulted was a paramedic or doctor, say.

The wording in the bill is “shall consider”, and that makes me wonder about some things. There are times when it's important to really consider the context. The example I gave earlier was of a doctor trying to deliver medical care to a patient at the hospital. The person is in pain and screams that they're going to rip the doctor's hands off if the doctor keeps touching them. That's not what you would call a real threat, necessarily.

I appreciate that you're not a legal expert, but as a paramedic, you have experience dealing with people in emergencies. You or your co‑workers have probably had to appear in court after being assaulted or threatened. That makes you somewhat of an expert, in my eyes.

Do you think the bill would still be helpful if it said that the court “may consider as an aggravating circumstance”, instead of “shall consider”?

That way, the judge would have the discretion to determine whether it should be considered as an aggravating circumstance in a particular case.

[Dr. Justin Mausz]

Yes, absolutely. If we switch roles for a minute, I'll tell a very brief story.

One of my colleagues—the president of our union, as luck would have it—was assaulted by a patient who was under the influence of mushrooms, I believe. It was a drug-affected young man who made a bad choice. He knocked over my colleague, who suffered a concussion and was unable to work for a little while. This young man made a poor decision, and he deserves to be held accountable for that decision, but not necessarily to spend his life in prison or to have his life ruined. I always think context is important in decisions that must be approached with seriousness.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Mausz and Mr. Hills.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you to all of our witnesses this afternoon.

Thank you very much for appearing.

Ms. Donnelly, we are going to offer to you to return in person in few weeks. The clerk will contact you and, hopefully, work out a suitable time for you, if that's okay with you.

Yes? Okay. That's perfect.

Thank you very much, everyone.

Our next meeting will be on Tuesday afternoon. The meeting is adjourned for today.