Evidence of meeting #81 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
We have looked at the reports of inquiries conducted in the past. There have been numerous royal commissions, for instance. We are also in the process of dealing with...
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I'm sorry to interrupt, Minister. I do not want to be rude, but time is running out.
You said you have looked at reports of inquiries conducted in the past. I would like to know what conclusions they reached as to why those persons were in prison.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I will let my officials answer that question, but what I would like...
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Can we do that right away? I have only about a minute left, I think.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I would just like to point out that we are in the process of creating Canada's Black Justice Strategy and the Indigenous Justice Strategy to address the overrepresentation...
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Minister. I like you a lot, but I would like an answer to my question. Who can answer it?
5:10 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
I would like to hear the question again, please.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
We know there are a lot of racialized persons behind bars. Do we know why they are there? Has there been an inquiry into this? The minister said he consulted the reports of previous inquiries on the subject and that you could give me an answer. What did those inquiries conclude? Why are those people behind bars?
5:10 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
First of all, I think that kind of study would be the responsibility of Public Safety Canada, which is also responsible for Corrections Canada. During the consultations...
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
From what I am hearing, we do not know why those people are there, but we are amending the legislation. Is there a rationale for that?
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Rob Moore
Monsieur Fortin, your time is up.
Do you want to very quickly respond?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
If I could just highlight this specifically, there was a commission in Ontario in 1995 on systemic racism in the justice system. It dates as far back as that, if not further, identifying factors that result in the overrepresentation of racialized people in our justice system.
It is a pretty established fact, but we could undertake to provide you with more information as to where those conclusions were drawn.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Chair.
Minister, I appreciated that response you just provided on systemic racism. That is one of the reasons I asked a question about the evaluation and accountability measures and performance indicators. It's because I have concerns that they don't address the kind of systemic racism we're currently seeing in the system, which is glaring, certainly in the Prairies with the overincarceration of indigenous women.
I want to go back, because I ran out of time. Why was the possibility for group reviews not included in the legislation?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
What I can say, Ms. Gazan, is it's an important question, but this is meant to be an incremental approach. We looked very closely at some of those other jurisdictions that I identified—New Zealand and Scotland, and then England, Wales and Northern Ireland combined—and the notion of having a broad and far-reaching mandate for the commission was made moot by some individuals who were helping us develop this.
What we tried to do was a have more targeted and focused initiative that looked at replacing my discretion with a commission of people who would be able to look at this using a slightly different test and outreach, which would allow for more applications to come in such that they would then be able to address the convictions we're seeing.
As for what we do with the patterns we see, that is part of the parliamentary review that's built into the statute, so five years from now, this committee or another one will be looking at whether the legislation needs to be amended to perhaps examine exactly what you're speaking to.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I have questions about the commission.
I'm wondering what portion of applications, through the process provided in Bill C-40, are expected to be from indigenous women.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
What percentage or portion of applications, through the process provided in Bill C-40, are expected to be from indigenous women?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
It's very hard to predict how many applications will come in from any sector. I hope it will be more than what comes in now. That would be my goal.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
That is concerning to me, because, if you look at miscarriages of justice, knowing about programs and access to proper legal help.... These are some of the things that need to be looked at while the bill is being implemented—should it pass—in order to make sure some of these areas are looked after.
This past year, the Department of Justice indicated.... In terms of miscarriages of justice, there's a very prominent case. You began a review of the convictions of two indigenous women, Odelia and Nerissa Quewezance. They are two of at least 12 indigenous women whose stories have been publicized by the MMIWG national inquiry. It underscored how the systemic injustices they faced have been experienced by far too many indigenous women within the criminal legal system, but also when they are seeking remedies for miscarriages of justice.
Can you provide an update on when the department will reach a decision on these convictions, for which the Quewezance sisters have served decades in prison? What is the timeline for reviewing the cases of the other 10 identified indigenous women?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
Ms. Gazan, I appreciate the question and your very significant concern in this area.
What I would say to you is this: In the normal course, I don't discuss any application that is pending in the system, because it's ultimately going to come on my desk for a decision. I know that, in the case of the two Quewezance individuals you mentioned, they have themselves disclosed the fact that they put in an application. I would refer you back to what Ms. Besner said earlier, in her testimony: The length of time spent on a file varies depending on the complexity of the file. It's very difficult to ascertain.
As a further elaboration on your last question, the point, Ms. Gazan, is that we can't guarantee how many, quantifiably, will come in from Black, indigenous or female accused. What you will have prior to the five-year parliamentary review is this: On an annual basis, you'll have parliamentary reports that show the demographic data on applicants coming into the system. When a report like that is tabled, it's incumbent on all of us, as parliamentarians, to try to identify patterns and say, “Well, maybe there needs to be more done on outreach with indigenous women or Black men”—whatever the case may be.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I would agree there is absolutely more that needs to be done in outreach. I think we know that already, just by seeing what the system currently looks like. I appreciate that acknowledgement.
The report by Justice Westmoreland-Traoré and Justice LaForme recommended three defining features for the new Miscarriages of Justice Commission. First, they recommend “a proactive and systematic commission as opposed to a reactive commission.” Such a commission could proactively research and identify recommendations to avoid future cases of wrongful convictions and miscarriages of justice.
Why is this proactive approach not addressed in the commission's mandate?
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
First of all, we appreciate what Justice LaForme and Justice Traoré offered a great deal, in terms of their hard work on this issue.
Secondly, I would politely and respectfully push back a bit on that. There are many proactive elements built into this bill and in what's conceived for the commission—very specifically, the outreach efforts of going into prisons; raising awareness about the existence of the commission and how people can apply; providing assistance to people who apply; and providing translation and linguistic interpretation. That is all, by far, much more proactive than the work the tremendously hard-working officials at the Department of Justice do right now. That's exactly the same type of proactive activity that was contemplated by Justice Traoré and Justice LaForme.