Justice Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 81 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant the House order of June 21, 2023, the committee is meeting in public to study Bill C-40, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a couple of comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

All comments should be addressed through the Chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience.

I should also note that you will receive a notice that our meeting for the morning of Thursday from 11:00 to 12:30 with Minister Virani and the chair of the selection process for the new Supreme Court judge has been confirmed.

I understand that our witnesses do not have opening remarks, so we'll move right into our time of questions and answers. I will begin with Mr. Brock for six minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your attendance today.

This bill is about a miscarriage of justice. I would like to ask some questions of the officials about a specific miscarriage of justice.

To you, Mr. Livingstone, can you confirm that you were the Justice department's point of contact on the RCMP's request to waive cabinet confidences and solicitor-client privilege concerning Justin Trudeau's efforts to pressure Jody Wilson-Raybould into offering a sweetheart deal to a Liberal-connected firm of SNC-Lavalin?

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Go ahead, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I fail to see the connection between this and the topic we're here to discuss today.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Brock has the floor; it's his time. This is the time for the members of Parliament. We usually allow quite a bit of discretion when we have ministers, for example, or senior departmental officials.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. With all due respect, there isn't a semblance of connection between his question and what we're talking about here today. I would ask that you review the question, if necessary, because it has absolutely zero connection. It wasn't leading to something that was remotely close to the topic at hand.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Brock has the floor.

Go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Can you answer that question, Mr. Livingstone?

[Edward Livingstone, Senior Advisor and Senior General Counsel, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice]

I was the Department of Justice contact, yes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, I apologize for interrupting, but there is a process for challenging the ruling of the Chair. I understand that you're sitting in the chair today because the chair couldn't be here.

I hate doing this. I really don't like doing this, because I don't like it when other people do it, but I am going to have to take issue with that and challenge the chair and put it to the committee.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Maloney, thank you for your intervention, but there has not been a ruling made. We have a six-minute period for questions and answers.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

If you haven't made a ruling, then I would ask for one.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Brock has the floor. As a member of Parliament, he's entitled to ask his questions of the officials who are here. It's my opinion that we allow a degree of latitude for our members to ask the questions as they see fit. It's a parliamentary committee.

I don't want this to take away from your time, Mr. Brock. You have three and a half minutes left.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, will all due respect, that is a ruling. You just made a ruling. You can't avoid the issue by refusing to make a ruling and then circumvent the process of challenging the chair, with all due respect.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Maloney, what ruling? We're kind of wasting time here.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I'm asking you to rule on the relevance of the question posed by Mr. Brock.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

In my opinion I don't have to make a ruling on relevance.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I'm going to ask you to turn to the clerk and ask for the process then, because that's not my understanding on how this works.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I might be permitted....

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Is this on a point of order?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

This is on the issue of relevancy. If the chair wishes that I justify the degree of relevancy, relevancy is a very subjective term. What is relevant to me is clearly not relevant to Mr. Maloney and the rest of the Liberal bench.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

This isn't a debate, with all due respect. The chair has to make a ruling, not based on what's going in Mr. Brock's mind.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Maloney, you've made your point. Mr. Brock is on the same point.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

How much time do I have remaining, Chair?