Evidence of meeting #87 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Besner  Senior Counsel, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

The meeting is called to order.

Welcome to meeting number 87 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the House on June 21, 2023, the committee is continuing its study of Bill C-40, an act to amend the Criminal Code, to make consequential amendments to other acts and to repeal a regulation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. We have one member with us online, and the rest are here in the room in person.

I think you're all very well informed of the procedures, so I will not read them all. If I need to go back to them, I will.

I would like to inform you that the sound tests have been carried out.

Monsieur Lametti has tested fine. I'm not going to say “positive”.

Here with us today to help us on our clause-by-clause study of Bill C-40, we have two witnesses from the Department of Justice. With us is Julie Besner, senior counsel, public law and legislative services sector; and Madam Shannon Davis-Ermuth, acting general counsel and director.

Welcome.

We will commence with the clause-by-clause.

Yes, Mr. Moore.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you.

Madam Chair and committee members, I had placed a notice of motion that the committee report to the House some measures to protect Canadians, and I want to just quickly speak to that now.

I think all members have this motion, but it is to:

(1) Designate the IRGC as a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code and expel an estimated 700 Iranian agents operating in Canada;

(2) Establish a foreign influence registry;

(3) Evaluate Canada's threat assessment in light of the U.K. travel advisory;

We all saw, with some shock, the travel advisory that came out, and it was the subject of questioning in question period that the United Kingdom had issued a travel advisory about Canada. That's something I feel we need to make a statement on as a committee. The motion also proposes to:

(4) Remove red tape and speed up access to the security infrastructure program to protect communities at risk;

All of us around this table represent different communities, and the risk we're hearing from our communities is very real right now. We need to make sure that Canada's security is up to speed with the risk that Canadians are facing.

Finally, this motion is to:

(5) Create an anti-hate crime task force to coordinate the protection of faith communities.

If there is one thing I've certainly been hearing as a member of Parliament—I know others have as well—it is that faith communities are very scared right now with what's happening internationally and what's happening here in our own country, where we value the contribution of various faith communities. Many of them are worried about the future, and they have every right to worry if the Government of Canada is not up to the task.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Could a copy of the motion be emailed to us, before we continue? It would help us follow the debate. I received it last week, but I don't have it to hand.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

One moment; the motion will be sent to you shortly.

3:53 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Fortin, did you receive a copy of the motion by email? Did everyone receive it?

3:53 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Yes, I received it, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

3:53 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

We're also trying to print copies.

Okay, Mr. Moore. It's over to you again.

3:53 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, it reads:

(1) Designate the IRGC as a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code and expel an estimated 700 Iranian agents operating in Canada;

(2) Establish a foreign influence registry;

(3) Evaluate Canada's threat assessment in light of the U.K. travel advisory;

(4) Remove red tape and speed up access to the security infrastructure program to protect communities at risk; and

(5) Create an anti-hate crime task force to coordinate the protection of faith communities.

Madam Speaker.... I'm sorry. It's Madam Chair. We've all been talking about the Speaker today. Who knows? Maybe.... You should never rule it out.

Madam Chair—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

What did you call me?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

I called you “Madam Speaker”. I meant no offence by it. You would be a great speaker.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

That would be stressful.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

I think you'd be a fantastic speaker.

Madam Chair, on that, we had the prospective Supreme Court nominee and the joint meeting between our committee and the committee of the Senate. If you remember, I mentioned at the time to Minister Virani, who appeared, that I felt you should be chairing that meeting. It shouldn't be a professor from a university coming to the parliamentary precinct, sitting and admonishing us, perhaps, about our questions, and telling us what kinds of questions we can ask. As a parliamentarian, I said at the time that I felt we have the ability to police ourselves in that regard. We could have easily, as was done in the past, conducted that meeting with a parliamentarian as chair.

If you remember, Madam Chair, at the time, I gave you my full endorsement. I felt you had all the qualifications and skills necessary to conduct that meeting.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Let me just say something here, as the chair.

I'm sure that your comments back then were in relation to whoever happens to be the chair. Let's not make it personal. In case you don't like something I do subsequently, I'd prefer not to make it personal.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

I would take it, and then quote him at a later date.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

No, no.

Please continue. Can you tell me what that has to do with your motion, though?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

It was because I accidentally called you “Madam Speaker”. I should say that I reserve the right to change my mind down the road, depending on how things go.

On the motion, I just want to quickly say that, obviously, Canada is our common home. We're very blessed. It's a place where people from all over the world come to live and pursue their dreams. Canada is a free country, but as we often take note at Remembrance Day, freedom is not free, and we have to be constantly vigilant.

We defend these values. We need to protect the freedom of all Canadians and stand for the values of freedom all around the world. Too often now in Canada—we're seeing them around the world but we're also seeing them in our home—we see disturbing acts of hatred and discrimination. Those acts threaten these values. These incidents can include verbal abuse, vandalism, hate, intimidation and violent acts. These acts must never stand in our country.

In recent years, we've seen a community face intimidations and threats by nefarious foreign actors. We've seen Jewish schools shot at and synagogues firebombed. We've seen churches burned down. We've seen Sikhs face harassment and discrimination. We've seen innocent Muslims murdered in their places of worship. We've seen Hindu temples vandalized.

These shameful acts have one goal, to terrorize Canadians. This cannot be tolerated. All Canadians must be able to freely live their lives and follow their dreams without fear and intimidation.

The Prime Minister has to take action to stop this surge in hatred. That is why I moved this five-part motion. I think they are common sense, and others may wish to speak to them. It's certainly not exhaustive, but it's a five-part motion that I think would have a tangible effect.

As we sit here as parliamentarians in Canada, we have to look, with some degree of concern, when we have the United Kingdom, for example, issuing advisories and they're news to us. We need to have a government that is on top of that. We need to be on top of that.

With the influence that we see now of foreign actors, we need to have a foreign influence registry. There's no doubt that the IRGC has to be listed as a terrorist entity.

Madam Chair, that is why I have moved this motion. Thank you for providing the time for me to speak to it today.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you, Mr. Moore, and you're very welcome.

I have a long list of speakers, so bear with me. We're trying to figure it out.

Ms. Lantsman.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

Thanks for having me at the committee.

I'm happy to speak to my colleague's motion, particularly at this juncture. I say “at this juncture” because I think there are many communities in this country that are feeling an increased level of anxiety, of fear and certainly of intimidation because, perhaps, they're an identifiable group or they follow a religion or they are a particular diaspora community.

That being the case, I think it's incumbent on this committee to report to the House on some of these measures we've talked about over and over again, whether in committee or in a public forum or on the floor of the House of Commons, and on how we want a place where people can come and live and feel safe, no matter whether they pray on Friday, on Saturday, on Sunday or not at all. The expectation is that Canada is a place where you can live free of any kind of threat.

I want to speak particularly to a few things in my colleague's motion. We've talked about this a lot in this country. In fact, the House of Commons voted on this in 2018, to designate and list the IRGC—the revolutionary guard in Iran—and the mullahs of Iran—those who have taken over the government and who rule with terror—and to ban them, effectively, from Canada, so they cannot organize, fundraise or recruit, because that's what they are allowed to do today.

We know that, by many estimations, there are about 700 Iranian agents living in Canada. We also know that the government, again, including the Prime Minister and all of the ministers who currently sit within the Canadian government, voted to ban these terrorists from Canada, yet we don't have that yet.

This is a time in which the activity of the regime has certainly increased. We've had about a year and a half of the Woman Life Freedom movement, over which Iran has certainly exercised a greater degree of influence, particularly inside Iran and outside of Iran in diaspora communities.

We know that Iranian-backed terror in the Middle East is fuelling the war chests of other terrorist organizations, like Hamas in the Gaza Strip. We know that they live in our community. They work out in our community. We know that the chief of police of Tehran works out at a GoodLife Fitness that is actually close to the riding of my colleague over there. We know that the health minister from the IRGC just had a steak dinner in the riding of another of my colleagues.

This is a community that is being terrorized by a regime that they left. This is a community that is so terrorized that they call our offices with a blurred-out background, in their cars, away from their homes, because they are afraid of being intercepted by the regime. Can you imagine leaving and fleeing a regime for a better life in Canada, and then having to call a member of Parliament from your car with a blurred-out background because you're afraid of the actions of that regime?

Now, what I don't understand is the government's not giving any reason for not banning this organization. In fact, as we understand it, from many who are talking around this town, this actually went back for a cabinet decision within the last two weeks, and they still haven't banned this organization.

This is one of the components needed to make sure we eradicate terror from our own soil. In fact, the Prime Minister, in the last two weeks, has talked about terror in this country. He used the word “terrorism” when talking about the shooting just outside of my colleague's riding in Montreal, where shots were fired at a school overnight. Thank God nobody was hurt, but that was just a matter of the time of day.

If it happened once, it can happen again. In fact, it did happen again. It happened again just a week later. These are shootings at Jewish institutions. We see that mosques.... We see people mowed down in the streets of London in front of a religious institution by a crazed lunatic. If that's not terrorism, I'm not sure what is. There is vandalism of Hindu temples. We see that. Anti-Sikh hatred in this country is on the rise. There is the burning of churches. This is just one of the reasons we want to bring this motion forward.

Another part of this motion is to evaluate Canada's threat assessment in light of the U.K. travel advisory we saw a number of weeks ago. That travel advisory said to exercise a high degree of caution when travelling to Canada. It declared, “Terrorists are very likely to try to carry out attacks in Canada.” We wonder why nobody within our authorities has said anything like that.

Another part of this motion is to remove red tape and speed up access to what's called the “security infrastructure program”, which protects communities at risk. The security infrastructure program was brought in by the previous Conservative government. A gentleman by the name of Stockwell Day, who was a great minister, brought in this program. I understand the program has.... There's been some tinkering around the edges. There have been some increases, of course, because the hate has gotten higher, but if you've ever looked at that program, you'll know you almost need a Ph.D. to apply for it. It's a complicated program. The terrorist attack I mentioned in London.... One of the mosques in London is still waiting, two years later, for funding from that program to protect its community. Smaller institutions don't have the resources and capabilities to apply for that funding. They're trying, certainly, to get their hands on some of that funding to keep worshippers, students and those who attend their community gatherings safe. They can't get their hands on it. This is another measure. It's not a question, necessarily, of funding. It's a question of how fast that funding flows and whether it flows at all.

This motion also brings forward an anti-hate crime task force, particularly to coordinate the protection of faith communities, Madam Chair, which have been under attack in this country. The rising tide of attacks against faith communities is something, frankly, that cannot be disputed. We see this in every single community. We see it among our own constituents and communities. They speak to us parliamentarians. They wonder why, in this country, they do not feel safe.

I wrote a letter to the Minister of Public Safety a number of months ago. Particularly after the heinous attacks of October 7, we saw a rise in anti-Semitism. Now, subsequently, we also see a rise in Islamophobic rhetoric and action right across the country. We wonder why there was no coordination. It took a month to respond to that letter, and even longer to act on it. We feel it's not there.

This motion speaks to a number of issues. Actually designate those whom the government promised to designate as terrorists as terrorists. We have heard this over and over again from diaspora communities. They are wondering who the constituency is here that is being protected by the government. Who is the government answering to? They, themselves, voted to list them as a terrorist entity and ban them from Canada, from organizing and from being able to raise money and recruit. Who is it they are protecting? It simply doesn't make sense to diaspora communities across the country—to Iranians who fled the regime to come here.

This is a simple number of measures to protect our communities from the terror that has been rising in this country, which our Five Eyes allies seem to believe is happening and which the Prime Minister himself admitted.

Of course, another part of this motion that I haven't spoken about yet—but I will—is the foreign influence registry. We've heard time and again from this government that this cannot be tolerated and they are doing everything they can to target foreign interference. Unfortunately, everything they can stops short of actually establishing a foreign influence registry. Frankly, we ask ourselves, oftentimes, “Why not go forward with this?” We want to see the government work to identify additional threats. Establishing a foreign influence registry is one of those.... They've continued to break their promise to establish a registry. This, of course, would limit the influence of foreign governments that wield intimidation within Canada, particularly over some of the diaspora communities we are talking about. They are afraid to live within their own communities.

This is not a country where you should be afraid to live in the place where you moved—to which you fled. I have a well-known story. I'm a child of immigrants who fled the former Soviet Union. They live in a neighbourhood with many who did the same thing. Many fled from Iran after the fall of the Shah. Many have fled the most brutal regimes in the world to find a better life in Canada. The fact that we can't explain to them why these things happen in our community—when they feel intimidated, when shots are fired at a school, when fire bombings target institutions, or when people are mowed down in the streets by cars simply because of the way they look or the faith they practise—or tell them we are taking it seriously here in Ottawa is a head-scratcher for everybody who chose to move to Canada.

In that light, under all of that, I want to make sure this committee reports to the House that the following measures be taken—I will repeat them one more time for the sake of the record: that we finally designate the IRGC as a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code and expel the estimated 700 Iranian agents who are operating here in Canada; that we finally establish a foreign influence registry; that we evaluate Canada's threat assessment, certainly in light of the U.K.'s travel advisory we saw a number of weeks ago; that we remove some of that red tape, or all of that red tape, to speed up access to the security infrastructure program to protect those communities at risk; and that we create an anti-hate crime task force to coordinate the protection of faith communities. Of course, these have been under a tremendous amount of threat in the last number of months and years. It seems as if all those communities are, frankly, more afraid than they were even two years ago.

These are just simple measures that would tell Canadians that their representatives in Ottawa—those who have the power to change things for them—are at least paying attention. There have been commitments made in this House over and over again, whether through votes, statements or bravado, which often happens in this town. Let them know, at a time when their communities are facing these threats, that we are working for them and also taking this seriously.

I'm very happy that my colleague brought this motion forward in committee, and I'd like to see it in the House. Again, these are five very simple, achievable measures that I think would increase safety in our communities and in the communities of many of my colleagues, two of whom were at an establishment which hours later was under attack.

I know that my colleagues have taken measures...through all of the resources that we're provided as MPs, but there are communities that don't have that. This isn't about protecting MPs. This is about making sure that people, particularly around holidays in many communities, go out and feel safe attending these community celebrations. They won't think twice about doing what should be allowed and should be celebrated in this country.

I want the House to talk about this, because certainly there is a timeliness to all of this. I want those who need to make that decision about whether to send their kids to school, whether to attend that community centre, to attend a menorah lighting...which I understand now is okay everywhere in the country, and it's doubly okay in Hampstead, I'm pleased to hear.

For all of those who are going to attend afternoon prayers or churches during the holidays, I want them to know that Ottawa is talking about how to keep those institutions safe. I frankly believe that without freedom of religion, freedom of movement, freedom of speech, there is no freedom in this country. It's one of the things we have to protect.

As much as I will repeat elements of this motion, I think it's quite important to talk about it in the House and to make actual policy. The protection of our state, of our institutions, of the people who live within Canada, of all Canadians, no matter where they're from, where they live or what they do, I'm not sure is a partisan issue. I'm not sure why everybody in this committee, and eventually everybody in the House, couldn't support these few measures.

With that, I'd like to thank my colleague for bringing forward that motion.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you for your comments.

Next is Mr. Garrison, please.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I appreciate that the Conservative motion raises very important issues for Canadians. I'm not sure that we can predict the outcome at committee, but I don't see a lot of possibilities for huge disagreement.

My concern is that we have in front of us today, on the agenda, amendments to a bill that people—volunteers from the innocence projects around the country, and indigenous people—have been waiting many years for, on miscarriages of justice.

My concern is that we have competing important issues. We seem to have had a great deal of agreement in this committee around the miscarriage of justice bill. We have very few amendments, which we could deal with.

What I'm going to propose now, and if it's in order I'm going to move it, is that we adjourn debate on this motion to deal with the amendments, and then return to the debate on this motion after having dispatched the amendments.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

We have a motion on the floor. I'm going to accept that motion.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Chair, don't we already have a speakers list on the motion that we're dealing with?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

We have a motion and I'm going to ask for people to vote on it. Please be careful; there are only x number of people who can vote on it.

4:15 p.m.

An hon. member

I will be subbing.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

You're now subbing. I see. Thank you very much for that.

We have a motion on the floor to adjourn this particular debate and return back to it after we deal with Bill C-40. I'm going to deal with that.