Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank my colleague Mr. Moore for putting forward this motion. It is very important. It is also very timely.

Number one looks at designating the IRGC as a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code and expelling the estimated 700 Iranian agents operating in Canada. These things have come up many times in the House, and I'm surprised that the Prime Minister hasn't acted on them yet. Even politically speaking, I'm surprised he wouldn't have acted on them.

I've been to a number of “Woman, Life, Freedom” rallies in downtown Vancouver, three or four of them, and every time they attract large numbers of people, primarily from the Iranian community throughout metro Vancouver. They're very motivated and they are very animated. They love their country. They love Iran. They just don't love the IRGC government that is running their country, and they're looking to Canadian politicians to support them in that.

We have certainly shown that support as well as we can by showing up at the rallies and speaking and meeting people and talking with them and encouraging them, so politically it seems as though it would be a popular thing to follow through on what Mr. Moore has now put as number one on this motion. I'm surprised that nothing has happened about it yet.

Second, it is very timely in the sense that, given the October 7 Hamas terrorist attack on innocent Israelis, the sense of discomfort and the sense of insecurity among the Jewish population here in Canada has spilled over, and we should be doing whatever we can to support them and to show them that they have a home here in Canada, that we support Israel.

I would point out that Israel is the only democratic nation in the middle of what is otherwise a pretty hostile region of the world—to them, anyway. It is a technologically advanced, industrialized nation, a country with which we can trade. We can support each other democratically and economically, and we need to show them that support in whatever way we can. I believe passing this motion would signal that.

I also want to make the point about what I see as misplaced anger and frustration by some Canadian citizens in response to announcements a couple of years ago concerning unmarked graves at a former residential school in Kamloops. We all recognize that this is a black mark in our history. We also recognize that churches—the Catholic church and the Anglican church and others—have partnered with the Canadian government throughout our history to operate residential schools.

I understand as well how frustrating it has been for indigenous communities to learn about these unmarked graves. I've met with the Kwantlen First Nation people in my riding on several occasions, and I know that the pain is real and it all feels very recent. There are some elderly citizens who live there, who were survivors of residential schools, and I am deeply sympathetic to their concerns, but what I find frustrating is that frustration by some people in response to these historical truths has been misguided into attacking Christian churches. A number of churches were burned, some to the ground, and what I find really puzzling is that several of these churches were actually there to service indigenous communities, so burning them was of no help at all. Those doing that were not supporting indigenous communities at all. They were just hurting them.

I believe it's number five in the motion that speaks to that. I think it is a very timely motion. I commend my colleague for putting it forward, and I think we should all vote in favour of it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Mr. Housefather, please proceed.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

First of all, I think a lot of these things are things we all agree on. There are things we already, on our side, said we were in support of too. For example, I already voted in the House to designate the IRGC a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code. I think Iran is one of the greatest dangers to the world, along with countries like North Korea. Iran is fomenting terrorism in the Middle East. It has a horrible record of abusing human rights and calling for the genocide of Jewish people and the state of Israel. Clearly, I support the IRGC being named a terrorist entity. If there are enemy agents of the Iranian government operating in Canada—I can't validate that there are 700, or whatever the number is—they should be expelled. There's no doubt about it. I have absolutely no problem with that.

We've already said we want to establish a foreign influence registry. I think that's a very important thing to do. It should be done on a timely basis. We are constantly evaluating Canada's threat assessment, whether in light of the U.K. travel advisory or anything else. Canada would always be doing that. I strongly support that.

Remove red tape and speed up access to the security infrastructure program. As soon as the attacks of October 7 happened, where the Hamas terrorist organization attacked our democratic ally Israel, there were threats to Jewish communities and institutions across the country, and threats to Muslim associations and others. Dominic LeBlanc immediately acted and created a new round of funding that removes most of the red tape and speeds it up. Most people will get answers under the new program, once they apply, in a matter of weeks. It allows security guards to be included. No longer do you need to provide three competing quotes for many things. It was actually done. I support it, because we just did it.

Finally, on the anti-hate crime task force for communities across the country, local police often do not know how to deal properly with these issues. They need proper training and guidance on the Criminal Code. I think we should all be working together, across federal, provincial and municipal governments, to coordinate policing. Of course, as somebody who was in a building that had a Molotov cocktail thrown at it one and a half hours after he left—we'd posted on social medial; then that happened—I understand how communities throughout this country are terrorized and afraid. I have people in my riding who are afraid to send their kids to their schools. I have people in my riding who are afraid to go to campus wearing their Magen David. Again, I speak as somebody who is a member of the Jewish community and has a riding in which over 30% of the people are from the Jewish community. That's true of people in the small Muslim community in my riding. The mosques are worried, too. Ms. Dhillon was talking to me about how her Sikh community feels in certain parts of this country.

There is no harm in doing this. We should be doing more. In fact, one thing I say we're missing is having the administrators of colleges and universities as part of a task force with federal and provincial governments, in order to tell them how to quell hate on campus. That is something we should also be doing.

In any case, to be brief, I have no problem with this resolution. I'll vote in favour of it, because it's stuff we should be doing, end of story.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I call the vote.

[An hon. member]

There are still at least two names on the list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Okay. However, all permanent members are in the room. You are not permanent members.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The rules still permit members who were not subbed in to speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

There are no subs, apparently, anymore—by our rules.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Members in good standing are permitted to speak to motions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Give me a minute, please.

Mr. Kurek, go ahead.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'll keep this very brief, because I know that—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I have a point of order.

Could I get some clarity on whether or not I'm on the list? Am I on the list?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

As a member, you can be on the list. The rules.... I don't know when they were changed, and I certainly didn't change them. If the committee objects, you would not be able to speak. If the committee does not object, you are able to speak. The reason is that you are not a permanent member on the committee, and subs are no longer allowed.

However, having said all of that, I'm now recognizing Mr. Kurek to speak.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Madam Chair, I don't understand your ruling.

First of all, subs are allowed. Secondly, unless this committee has adopted a motion prohibiting substitution, which I doubt has occurred.... If the committee has not adopted a special order to the contrary, the rules permit the participation of members—though they can't vote—if they're duly elected members of the House of Commons and they're present at the committee.

If your understanding of the rules is different, I would invite you to cite the relevant Standing Orders or sections of Procedure and Practice. I am quite certain that members are allowed to speak if they are associate members of the committee, which I am. I'm an associate member of the committee. Associate members are allowed to speak, but they can't vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Here's the last I will say to that, based on advice I'm receiving. Permanent members are in the room, and that is the reason there can be no subs to the committee. It's because the members are already in the room.

Having said all of that, I am allowing you to speak, Mr. Cooper. Go ahead, please.

Count yourselves.... You're all—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It's Mr. Kurek, but thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The point is, Chair, that if there are more members, I'm still allowed to be on the list to speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

You're allowed to be on the list. The question is whether or not you get to speak.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If the committee collectively takes a decision that associate members cannot speak, the committee can collectively take that decision, but the committee would take that decision via a motion and there's already a substantive motion on the floor, so a member couldn't move that motion anyway.

I'll look forward to my chance to speak. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

That's fine. We'll deal with that at a subsequent meeting. We don't normally have a lot more members besides the committee in the room. This is a first for this one.

Mr. Kurek, go ahead.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, related to this, I think we have two very important issues before the committee: this motion and, of course, the bill that we'll be speaking to after this is disposed of.

I do, however, want to ensure that there is absolute clarity on the rights and privileges of members of the House of Commons on this, because one of the long-standing challenges.... As a student of politics and House procedure, I'm concerned with the recent explanation as to the role of members who are not regular members of the committee, so, Madam Chair, I would challenge that ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

No, no. There is no need to challenge, but I will read to you what the book says on page 1026, in chapter 20, on committees:

The Standing Orders provide that any Member, whether affiliated with a political party or sitting as an independent, may take part in the public proceedings of any committee of which he or she is not a member, unless the House or the committee in question orders otherwise. The Standing Orders specifically exclude a non-member from voting, moving motions or being counted for purposes of a quorum.

That's all I was trying to say. Do you want me to read it again? I didn't write this, by the way.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

You're very welcome.