Evidence of meeting #89 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Besner  Senior Counsel, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 89 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the House on June 21, 2023, the committee's continuing its study of Bill C-40, an act to amend the Criminal Code, to make consequential amendments to other acts and to repeal a regulation regarding miscarriage of justice reviews.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

We have with us two returning witnesses from the Department of Justice.

We welcome Ms. Julie Besner, senior counsel, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, and Ms. Shannon Davis-Ermuth, acting general counsel and director.

I'm going to continue with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-40. We were on clause 2.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

I have a quick point of order, Madam Chair.

I'm not going to belabour this point, because we did discuss it a little bit, but I want to draw the committee's attention to the notice of motion that we had inviting the minister here. We agreed to it on November 28.

It was that the Minister of Justice appear “no fewer than 2 hours regarding the Supplementary Estimates (B) 2023-24, and that this meeting take place as soon as possible, and no later than December 7”.

At this committee, we very rarely have unanimity, and this was a time when we actually all agreed to this. I know we talked about it last Thursday. It's just that here we are again. The notice of meeting came out, and I saw once again that we were on Bill C-40, and the minister was not appearing. I still think there's a compelling reason why we would want to hear from the minister. I know his time was reduced from two hours to one, but maybe we could have a two-hour meeting with the minister. We had said “no later than December 7”. It was scheduled for December 7, and now here we are sometime later and still no minister.

Perhaps you have something to say on that, Madam Chair. I think I know what you're going to say, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention it, because here we are again. The motion said at the earliest possible opportunity, and the minister's not here.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I thank you, Mr. Moore, as the vice-chair of the committee, and all of your caucus. I will not entertain this again; I've already ruled on this point. I have absolutely nothing more to add. My decision stands, and that is it. I will not entertain any more points of order on that.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Chair...

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Fortin, please go ahead.

If it's on this same point....

4 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Absolutely not.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

That's perfect, because I wouldn't want you to waste your time.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

As you know, Madam Chair, I very rarely intervene in this committee, but, when I do, it's always for the same reason.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

That's true.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

We have two colleagues who are videoconferencing, and I'd like you to clarify whether the tests have been done and whether they are satisfactory.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much, Mr. Fortin.

The duties of our two colleagues on the line today are limited to voting, if necessary. They will not take part in the discussions.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

What happens if we have a roll-call vote?

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

They can vote by raising their hand.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

My only concern is not to harm our interpreters. We have so few of them. They are precious to us. I'm sure our colleagues online agree with me on that.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much, Mr. Fortin. I understand very well.

(Clause 2)

We will now proceed with clause 2.

We have Mr. Kurek, please.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to come back before this committee to discuss such an important bill.

Something I shared before was about how there are two sides to how we ensure that Canadians can trust our justice system. When we look specifically at clause 2 and, more generally, the fact that we have a system that requires a particular tension between the different branches of our government.... The justice system, in particular, demonstrates that very thing.

Madam Chair, I am, as all of us are, honoured to take my seat in the House of Commons. When I first got elected I, of course, was given a space for an office here. I take this very seriously and it's an important illustration that will get directly to the subject matter related to clause 2 here.

I think it bears mentioning that I can sit at my desk, and I can look out one window and see the Supreme Court. I can look out the other window and see the Centre Block of Parliament. It reminds me daily about the tension that exists in our system between the different branches of government.

There are many things that can and probably should be said about the role of the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General, which are two distinct positions within the executive structure of our government. I won't get into that, but Madam Chair, I will note, because it has a close relationship to what we are discussing here, that we have a certain level of disconnect that Canadians are feeling when it comes to their ability to be connected with and hold their government accountable.

It's disappointing that the Minister of Justice, who I'm sure would have lots to say about this particular bill, although he was requested to appear on the estimates....

We know there's a great deal of latitude given during the discussion of something that is as important as the estimates. It's disappointing that that respect would not be given to this committee, especially when it comes to the important work that needs to be accomplished, whether that's on instances of miscarriage of justice, rising crime rates across our country in a host of different categories, many other concerns within the justice system writ large or the various elements of the justice committee and its pretty wide-sweeping mandate.

There are a number of committees in Parliament that are more general in nature. I count it as an honour as a duly elected member to be able to join the discussion at different committees from time to time.

The justice committee has a particular impact. It's not specific to one segment of society and to one part of government, but it has that very wide scope. I think that's why it's so important. As I mentioned, in close connection to the topic at hand, it's why I am so disappointed by the fact that the Minister of Justice either couldn't find the time or refused to find the time to come and testify before this committee and be asked questions.

I referenced where I sit in my office here in the parliamentary precinct and can see both the legislative branch and the judicial branch. I understand that in Canada, there's a close connection between the legislative branch and executive branch of our government, dating back to the Magna Carta when there was that distinction and the limitations placed upon the Crown. It's important that this is preserved in what we do in this place. I find it very unfortunate.

We see that when the executive power of—

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

I may have come to the wrong committee meeting. I think this is a meeting on Bill C-40, which, I think, relates to miscarriages of justice, but we're talking about office placements.

This is a bill that the Conservative party supports, so I'm curious why they're filibustering it. When there are wrongfully convicted individuals who seek justice, and there are individuals here who are lawyers and who have sworn oaths with their various law societies to uphold justice and uphold their oaths as members—not only as lawyers, but when they come into the political sphere—to laugh as this is going to be filibustered, Madam Chair, is just disrespectful.

I'm wondering if I made it to the right committee room, because we're not discussing anything about Bill C-40. I was hoping the honourable member could get back to talking about clause 2 of Bill C-40.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you, Mr. Bittle. You definitely are in the right committee although I question myself sometimes whether I am chairing the right committee as well.

Mr. Kurek, for the record, just to be clear, the minister is definitely willing to appear. Bill C-40 needed to be dealt with first. It's something that the Conservatives are obviously taking their sweet time to get us to finish so that we can have the minister here.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

On the point of order, Madam Chair, that Mr. Bittle mentioned—and welcome to the committee—indeed, he's in the right committee, and this is a committee that has done a tremendous amount of good work.

As Mr. Bittle is not a regular at this committee, I want to let him know that under the leadership of our chair, we work relatively well together at this committee. We have very fulsome debates sometimes, back and forth, making our points. Sometimes there are compelling arguments one way or the other, but Mr. Bittle would also know, through you, Madam Chair, that we are on Bill C-40.

Not to revisit it, but you brought up the motion that we had to have the minister appear. That was deemed a priority because we set a deadline for that. We did not set a deadline for the completion of Bill C-40, for the awareness of Mr. Bittle.

Bill C-40 is a tremendously complicated piece of legislation—

4:10 p.m.

An hon. member

How would we know?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

The wrongfully convicted in this country do have a process. The Minister of Justice is Mr. Arif Virani. A process has existed in Canada for decades whereby an individual who has been wrongfully convicted or feels they have been wrongfully convicted or suffered a miscarriage of justice can avail themselves of the Department of Justice and, through the minister, make application for release, so I don't want him to be under the illusion that—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Moore, please get to your point of order because you're taking away Mr. Kurek's time, and I now have a list of other members.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Chair, I understand. It's just that Mr. Bittle's not a regular on the committee, so I wanted to give him a little flavour of how this is a committee that works well together—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I would agree with you for the most part, yes.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

—and I want my comments on that to be on the record because he may never be back here again.

I'll bring my point of order to a close, Madam Chair. I just want to say that I don't want him to be under any illusion, because he may not be familiar with the issue at hand, that there's a vacuum currently in this country. There is a process for those who are wrongfully convicted or suffer a miscarriage of justice.

Thank you, Madam Chair.