Evidence of meeting #91 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was judges.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome, dear colleagues.

This is meeting number 91 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Happy new year, everyone. I have no doubt that we will continue in 2024 with the same collegiality and respectful atmosphere that we are used to in this committee. Thank you for that.

We're here today to discuss the request for an emergency meeting pursuant to Standing Order 106(4).

The meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. We have two members on Zoom. I believe, since there are no witnesses outside of the members, that you're all very well versed in the rules in terms of how you are supposed to use the Zoom application.

I wish to inform you that all the sound tests were completed successfully.

There are no issues with the sound for those attending on Zoom.

Colleagues, we have circulated the Standing Order 106(4) meeting request received by the clerk on Friday afternoon. This request pertains to judicial vacancies, and we are here to discuss this subject.

I will open up the floor with Mr. Moore.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Chair, I’m raising a point of order before we start.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

You have the floor, Mr. Fortin.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

First of all, thank you. Next, I also want to extend my best wishes for 2024 to all committee members and staff.

Since two members of the committee are joining us using Zoom, I want to know if sound tests were done and if they were successful.

I’m going back to my good old habits; I apologize, but it can’t be helped.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Yes, Mr. Fortin, sound tests were done, as I already said.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I am sorry; I must have been distracted.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much.

We will now get started.

Mr. Moore, you have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The reason why we have asked for this meeting is that, as all of us are aware, former minister Lametti made some remarks recently about the judicial appointments process. All of us around this table, over a number of studies and bills—I'm thinking about even the study we did on the federal government's obligation to victims of crime—have heard commentary about the need to fill judicial vacancies.

The former minister made comments about judicial vacancies, the appointments process and what sounded like his frustration in filling those vacancies. In an effort to get some answers on that, those who signed had asked for this Standing Order 106(4) meeting, a special meeting, so the committee members could hear from witnesses on this issue and act accordingly.

I want to move a motion, Madam Chair, related to this proposed study. I think it's being circulated or has been circulated. It says:

Given that,

The former Minister of Justice, Hon. David Lametti, blamed the slowdown of judicial appointments solely on the Prime Minister's Office and last May, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, the Right Hon. Richard Wagner, wrote the Prime Minister expressing “great concern” about the shortage of judges in the country, the committee immediately launch a four meeting study in order to assess the impact of the insufficient number of judges Canada has, and calls the following witnesses: Minister of Justice, Hon. Arif Virani; former Minister of Justice, Hon. David Lametti; Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs; and Chief Justice of Supreme Court of Canada, Right Hon. Richard Wagner.

That would of course be a starting point. Other parties would have their ideas for witnesses, of course, but I do move that motion, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the committee's consideration of this important topic.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Moore, I've been informed by the clerk that the motion is available only in English. What happened to the French version?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Chair, I understand that the French version is on its way, so it should be with the clerk shortly.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Chair, with your permission, I move to suspend the meeting for a few minutes until the French version is tabled. From what I understand, it will be done shortly.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Very well.

We’re resuming the meeting.

I think everyone now has the French version of the motion.

I think we should all now have both English and French versions.

We will continue from where we started off. I believe Mr. Moore had a motion on the floor.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Yes, Madam Chair—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Yes, Mr. Housefather. I will look at the camera from now on. I'm glad you mentioned it. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I was just wondering, Madam Chair, if you would kindly circulate to us by email the motion in English and French.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Yes, thank you.

Give me one moment. Let's make sure the colleagues appearing virtually also have it.

The motion was just sent out. You should have it now, Mr. Housefather.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Moore, are you continuing?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Also, thank you, everyone, for your consideration of the motion.

I think it is important that this committee study this issue. It's a big issue, and it is fully within our wheelhouse. I'm not proposing that we spend an inordinate amount of time on it, but we should take a look at the impact of these vacancies on our justice system. Also, I don't see this in any way necessitating a delay in our consideration of Bill C-40. We have Thursday's meeting. We could possibly deal with Bill C-40 at that point. However, I do think it's something we should take a look at, for the reasons that are in the motion itself.

Thank you for your consideration.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Go ahead, Mr. Maloney.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, welcome back, everybody. Happy new year. It's good to see everybody.

I hope this committee can get off on the right foot and get moving forward on the important issues at hand. That is not how I would characterize this motion, if I were asked—to be frank.

First, I would start by saying thank you to former member of Parliament and justice minister David Lametti. As we all know, he has announced that he has decided to retire and move on to private practice.

In my view—and I know this view is shared, certainly by the people on this side of the table and, I believe, around the House—he was a remarkable member of Parliament. He served as the Minister of Justice with integrity and honour. I was very proud to work with him and have nothing but total admiration for the work he's done. I just wanted to say thank you to him.

One of the many problems with this motion is that every time you have a discussion like this, it somehow impugns the integrity of the justice system. I'm looking across the table at five lawyers and one person who had the wisdom not to become a lawyer. It sends the wrong message to the general public, because I think everybody who has practised will agree that Canada has one of the greatest judicial systems. It's the envy of the world. I'm very proud to be a part of it.

Justice Lametti has, as I said, a great track record as justice minister, including judicial appointments. I'm very proud when I look at the people who were appointed under Justice Lametti's watch and at the people who have been appointed under our current Minister of Justice's watch. It's a source of pride, frankly, because they are quality people.

The process by which they're appointed is also something I'm very proud of, because if you look back over the past seven years and you look at the number of women, for example, who have been appointed to the bench since 2016, it's over 50%. This is the first time in Canadian history we've ever seen that. The bench now is more reflective of society as a whole—it's something we should all be very proud of—all while maintaining the integrity and quality of our system.

To proceed with this motion would be unfortunate, because it can only lead to a discussion that will become political and, as I said at the outset, send the wrong message to the general public about why we're having this discussion. This is because it raises questions that aren't real and are about how we may have a problem when we don't.

Just to address Mr. Moore's other point, about legislation, we've been patiently, as a committee, trying to deal with Bill C-40. We left here in December, after not several days but several weeks of filibustering delaying the passage of that bill. We are so close to having it done. There are families and people across this country who are watching us and who have respect for the integrity of our system. If we waste time on this motion and delay dealing with Bill C-40 any further, it will be a complete shame and a display of a total lack of respect for all those who are waiting patiently.

Therefore, I will be voting against this motion, in the hope that we can move on very quickly and get back to Bill C-40.

I should point out, too, that in the last 12 months, there have been 100 judicial appointments filled. In keeping with that accelerated pace, this meeting started at 11 o'clock and eight appointments have been made since we sat down here this morning.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I will now go to Mr. Brock, followed by Mr. Van Popta, Mr. Caputo and Monsieur Fortin.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

With all due respect to my Liberal colleagues and, in particular, my friend Mr. Maloney, I don't share his analysis of the importance of this study. This is not a political opportunity to gain points. This is an opportunity to improve access to justice.

Every Canadian has an absolute right to receive timely justice, whether that be in the criminal realm or the civil realm. We're all lawyers. I can anecdotally share with you that this issue of the lack of urgency in judicial appointments is a chronic, serious issue that is undermining the functioning of our judicial system, so much so that the chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada had to cry out and make public his real, deep concerns about the pace at which the federal government is appointing justices.

Where I will agree with Mr. Maloney is that since the appointment of our new justice minister and Attorney General, there has been a sense of urgency in his office. He has appointed far more in the time he has held that office than were appointed in the four years previously occupied by David Lametti. David Lametti, in a CBC News report, essentially said, “It's not my problem. I wanted to appoint. I was hamstrung by the PMO.”

The process is very clear. Under the current judicial appointment process, the justice minister is responsible for recommending a candidate for approval. There are three aspects to that analysis: “highly recommend”, “recommend” or “do not recommend”. The justice minister recommends a particular candidate for approval following a due diligence process overseen in part by the Prime Minister's Office.

He was accurate to say it wasn't strictly his decision and his lack of a sense of urgency. He was stymied, essentially, by the lack of urgency in the Prime Minister's Office. That should send a very serious, alarming signal to all Canadians and to all members of the judicial process.

Mr. Maloney says that in the last week alone, they've appointed x number of justices, and today, eight justices. That's great. I haven't seen the news. I haven't seen the reports, so I'm not going to doubt the authenticity of what my friend had to say, but I can tell you that six months ago, when Justice Wagner cried out for assistance and had a personal one-on-one telephone call with the Prime Minister, there were 79 vacancies.

As of January 1, 2024—and anyone can do a Google search through the Office of the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs Canada—across this country, there were 78 vacancies. But for the comments of Mr. Maloney, we've improved on the stats by one justice.

Inevitably, the justices who are considered for federal judicial appointments tend to be senior members of the bar. There are mandatory requirements for retirement. There are options for federal justices to change their status from fully engaged or fully active justices on the bench to supernumerary status, which means they only sit for a very limited amount of time per year.

Every year, cyclically, we have a number of justices moving into new categories or flat out retiring. The numbers are always increasing. The fact that we have eight new appointments today is great, but come February 1, we could be down by 12. The problem does not go away. This problem of not having a full complement of federal court justices has existed for decades. Ever since I became a lawyer, there have never been enough justices. When you don't have enough justices, your access to justice is denied—so much so that the Senate, in August 2016, produced a study called “Delaying Justice is Denying Justice”. One of the recommendations was to appoint more judges in a timely manner. Here we are, eight years later, still arguing about how the appointment process is not efficient and how it often takes eight months to a year, if not longer, to appoint justices on the bench. The impacts are profound.

I've quoted for you what Justice Wagner.... Actually, I haven't quoted what Justice Wagner had to say, but I might take this opportunity to do that right now, because I think his words are very telling. As Canada's chief justice sounded the alarm over the serious consequences of judicial vacancies, in a wrap-up, he was “highly critical of the current pace of judicial appointments, warning that languishing vacancies on courts across Canada are exacerbating 'an already alarming situation.'” He said, “These empty positions have a significant impact on the administration of justice, the functioning of our courts, and access to justice for the public.... It has major effects in every province of this country.”

According to Justice Wagner, “There are [suitable] candidates available in every province [and territory], so there's no reason why those [vacancies] cannot be filled.” As noted by Justice Wagner, some courts have been operating for years with vacancy rates of 10% to 15%. “He said it's not unusual to see some positions remain vacant for months, or in some cases, years. This, even though in most cases”—this is quite telling, Madam Chair—“when judges retire they give six months'...notice” to the chief justice of their respective province. This isn't an abrupt decision to retire next week; there is a six-month period in which vacancies could be filled, but it's not happening.

I pulled another article by a civil litigator in Toronto by the name of Kathryn Marshall. She wrote an op-ed in one of our papers not too long ago. The title was “Our judicial system is broken, but politicians don't seem to care”. Well, I can tell you that this politician certainly cares. The entire Conservative bench certainly cares, which is why we brought this motion. She indicated that there was a particular victim from an Ontario town who was “scheduled to testify against her alleged rapist this past summer. But when she turned up for her day in court, she was told her case couldn't proceed because there was no courtroom available.”

She said:

Talk to any lawyer and they will tell you horror stories about turning up for Day One of a trial only to be told there is no courtroom or judge available. For lawyers it is frustrating, but for a victim of a crime who has mustered the courage to come forward, it is beyond devastating.

We all know how our criminal justice system has changed in light of the Supreme Court of Canada decision in R. v. Jordan. Jordan has set a presumptive ceiling by which cases must be completed in the lower court and in the superior court. It's 18 months in the lower court and 30 months in the higher court. When you don't have judges to fill the courtrooms, you have serious cases—sometimes homicides, serious domestic violence and serious gun offences—where the judge who is ultimately hearing a violation of the right to be tried within a reasonable time will often conclude that the Crown has not discharged its onus and that there is a charter violation. That violation results in a withdrawal or dismissal of the charges.

Now, what kind of message is this committee sending to victims across this country, “you don't matter”? We already have a serious issue with domestic victims coming forward. They don't trust our system. We have an opportunity as parliamentarians, particularly in this committee, which should be charged with this responsibility, to ensure the timely and efficient delivery of judicial services in both the criminal and the civil field. In my view, to turn down this very serious, important and relevant study is shameful.

Thank you. Those are my comments.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Mr. Van Popta, go ahead, please.