Evidence of meeting #11 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was religious.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, MP Lawrence.
On that note, Mr. McSorley, I'll pursue my last question.
Hate crimes often silence voices. How can clear laws like this empower Canadians to feel safe expressing their views?
National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
I believe that that's the gist of our argument: that we need clear laws in order to ensure that people from all communities can express their views. There's a clear need for legislation that governs hate speech and especially violence that's inspired by hate. However, at the same time, we believe that the legislation needs to be precise, and we think that there are areas of Bill C-9 that need to be given further precision in order to ensure that it's not applied in overly broad ways that could, in fact, lead to the criminalization of those who are speaking out and exercising their freedom-of-expression rights.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON
Thank you.
I think we've had some excellent testimony as to some of the weaknesses of the bill, and I think it has been constructive. I just want to take the conversation back to a more general perspective.
A quick but I think important question for the witnesses is this: Do any of you know how the Charter of Rights and Freedoms begins?
Executive Director, Christian Legal Fellowship
Are you referring to—I'm sorry to interrupt you—the preamble?
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON
I'm referring to the preamble, although it's actually a part of the charter; it's not actually a preamble.
Executive Director, Christian Legal Fellowship
So, the opening words of the charter state, “Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:”. Then section 1 states that the rights and freedoms are guaranteed, subject to such limits—I should have this memorized—“as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON
That's what I wanted to get across.
I just want to ask all of the panellists something, and I'll just use three of the major books of religion: the Quran, the Bible—both the New Testament and the Old Testament—and the Torah, which, of course, is the first five books of the Old Testament. Do you believe that any Canadian should ever be criminalized for reading any of these scriptures?
I'll go right across, so I'll start with you, Mr. Ross.
Executive Director, Christian Legal Fellowship
No, there should not be a categorical criminalization of simply reading a religious text.
As I hope I made clear in my previous answers, sometimes the context of the way that a text is used—or, more accurately, misused—might merit criminal intervention, but to say categorically that reading a particular text, whether it's a religious text or any other text.... I think it's problematic if we start listing certain books as being off-limits.
Conservative
Deputy Chief, Edmonton Police Service
I agree; I think no. Reading is one thing. I think that the context that's being read in and the space it's being utilized in are things you need to be mindful of. Anyone can read what they want, choose to read what they want and believe in what they want to believe in. It's a matter of how you're utilizing that, whether in a space amongst your peers or your friends or in a space where there are others who might have some concern with that. I think that the context around the use of that is very important.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON
Deputy Chief, if in fact you're reading the Torah, the Quran, or the Bible in a large group, you might see a potential for criminalization.
Deputy Chief, Edmonton Police Service
Again, I think that's a little bit far-reaching. I think it just depends on the context of what your intentions are with it. I mean, you could get into a good debate about the use of that and when it's used, but to just read it....
We could read lots of things that people might find offensive. I think there's a context that you have to take this all in when you look at what the intent of that was.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON
Mr. McSorley, I have the same question for you.
National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
Thank you.
Yes, I'd agree with the two other speakers that certainly there should be no law that simply outright bans the reading of any religious text in Canada and that the context of how speech is delivered is what is important. If it goes into calling for violence or other similar instances, then certainly that needs to be addressed, but the simple reading of religious scripture should not be criminalized.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to thank you all for your time.
Across Canada, we have seen a troubling rise in hate targeting marginalized groups and queer and trans people in schools, community spaces and online. Marginalized groups and 2SLGBTQI+ Canadians are often targeted by hate that can escalate from verbal harassment to violence.
How can Bill C-9's clear definition and stronger enforcement tools help officers intervene earlier to protect vulnerable people in Canada?
Deputy Chief, Edmonton Police Service
Again, as I said earlier, having a clear definition allows for our police officers to have a better understanding of what they're dealing with in the moment rather than try to seek out interpretation from maybe a peer or someone who specializes in this area. It just grounds us in what we're dealing with and allows us to act or intervene earlier, if needed.
Of course, we'd be continuing on with any investigation to decide whether or not we have reasonable and probable grounds, and then working with Crowns or otherwise in order to get to that likelihood of conviction if the charges are laid.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Building trust is essential. What steps can police services take, alongside legislation like Bill C-9, to ensure that marginalized groups and 2SLGBTQI+ Canadians feel safe reporting hate incidents and confident that they are taken seriously?
Deputy Chief, Edmonton Police Service
There are a couple of things. By having some of this legislation put in place, I think it allows us as a police service to properly report on what we're seeing and what we're dealing with. I think right now, because it is a bit grey in some of these spaces, we're not seeing charges being laid in spaces that are maybe under “mischief”, for example. It's not accurately capturing what we're dealing with.
Right now we're left to search reports doing keyword strokes to look for language within our reports to identify whether someone has potentially committed a hate incident or a hate crime. Again, the more that we as a police service can support and represent all of our communities to have safe spaces to do what they want to do each and every day, and to have those parameters around that, the more it builds trust with our communities and sets the standards for the expectation around how we interact with each other.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Partnerships make prevention stronger. How can collaboration between police, marginalized groups and 2SLGBTQ1+ Canadians improve education, reporting and supports for victims of hate-motivated crimes?
Deputy Chief, Edmonton Police Service
I think any time we as a police service can respond to the needs of our community—regardless of who they are—they see that we're taking their concerns seriously, and that we're communicating and working with them, regardless of the outcome, the situation and whether there are charges laid or not. It all comes down to public trust. The more public trust we have with our community, where they see us as being that impartial individual in that space to make sure we're managing what's going on, the more it builds better community trust and allows us to get more reporting.
We've seen some of that growth with reporting. That work will be done specifically agency by agency, in the relationships they have with their communities, to ensure that there's open dialogue around what the needs are and how we best represent them.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Thanks.
Do you agree that the definition of hatred in Bill C-9 can be assessed objectively?
Deputy Chief, Edmonton Police Service
Yes, whatever the definition comes to be, I think having a definition of a hate crime will assist police. Any time we as police officers have something to make our jobs easier and to make sure we know what we're doing.... It takes away that impartiality around people interpreting things erroneously and maybe acting inappropriately based on what their thoughts are. I think having that definition just puts us within those guidelines about what helps us do our jobs every day.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Thank you very much.
Bill C-9 also reaffirms that legitimate debate and discussion are still protected. Do you think that kind of clarity helps bring people together?
