Evidence of meeting #25 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
What measures can be taken to have more women come forward?
Executive Director, Valora Place
We need new and accountable training for police, Crowns and judges. It's really important that we know how to respond when someone comes forward and tells us the harm they've experienced.
I may come with a smile on my face. I may come speaking as if I'm talking about a grocery list, yet I'm talking about the most profound violation of my mind, body and spirit. We have to be ready to accept that the congruence may not be there. We have to see patterns, not single incidents of harm. We have to be curious and ask, “Okay, so he hit you. What happened the day before? What happened the week before? What happened the month before? Have you ever felt unsafe with him? Have you ever wondered about his sharing information about you? Has he ever shared photographs you weren't comfortable with?”
We have to see it as a pattern, not a single act. We have to realize that it is so pervasive and not profiled and not obvious. We have to realize that it is insidious, so we have to train people and be prepared.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Brock
Thank you, Ms. Brown.
Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank Ms. Boucher and Ms. Brown for being with us, as well as Mr. Khan, who is online.
Ms. Boucher, we've already spoken a few times about what happened to you. I can only reiterate my compassion and the sadness we feel when we hear things like that.
I want to remain objective and effective. I gather from your testimony that it's important to believe a woman who files a complaint. The same thing goes for Ms. Brown, who also said that women need to be believed. I would like you to elaborate on that. Ms. Brown just did so, and it's enlightening.
This is often interpreted as being contrary to or at odds with the presumption of innocence. If a woman files a complaint for domestic violence, how will a police officer react? I liked what Ms. Brown said. It helps us better understand.
Does the importance of being believed imply that a trial is pointless? Is a woman filing a complaint an automatic conviction?
Ms. Brown said that it was important not only to take a woman seriously and believe her, but also to take the complaint seriously, to investigate it like any other type of complaint.
I would like to hear your opinion on that aspect of your testimony.
Survivor of domestic violence, As an Individual
The stigma associated with domestic violence makes it difficult for victims to file a complaint with police. It all depends on the police officer who's there. It really affects what we say. Depending on how the person looks at us, we may feel comfortable speaking up or we may feel judged and keep quiet.
As far as the process and the prosecution are concerned, we the victims are considered to be witnesses, first and foremost. They do what they want with the complaints. They add or remove charges as they see fit. Having gone through it numerous times, unfortunately, I can tell you we don't feel supported, listened to, or involved. When we ask prosecutors too many questions, they say that they don't represent us, that they represent society.
That doesn't exactly make someone want to file a complaint, knowing how they may be perceived and how their words may be interpreted. As we know, women who are victims of violence unfortunately go back to their abuser many times. They are judged heavily for that, so it's very hard to come forward.
Another issue is that events are consolidated into a single charge, instead of being dealt with separately, no matter how many times the perpetrator committed the act. In my case, even though I was hit numerous times, there was just a single assault charge. Why? If a person is hit three times, why are the events considered to be concurrent, not consecutive? There are a lot of questions, and we don't really have the answers, unfortunately.
Seeing that makes women not want to file a complaint, because they don't feel protected. It's often much more dangerous to report the abuser, because it puts us at greater risk. It can take weeks, months and even years for a woman to find the courage to file a complaint for the first time. Anyone who knows how the current justice system works isn't that inclined to file a complaint. That's why many women don't, unfortunately. They're putting themselves at greater risk, and what for? The system doesn't protect them anyways. There's a lot of discussion about Bill C‑16, but there's a big problem at the system's core, as the other witness said, the prosecutors and judges.
They need training as well. Women are told to come forward, but they put their lives in danger when they do.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Brown, I have just a bit of time left, but is there anything you'd like to add to what Ms. Boucher just said or on the same issue?
Executive Director, Valora Place
Your testimony is incredibly powerful. Your experience is the experience we've had over and over again. We need to have representation in the justice system for each of us as women, that is, a lawyer dedicated to women's experience in the justice system, a similar system to the one we have for family court support workers in Ontario and criminal court support workers across the country, who will walk with women through this experience.
Just six years ago, after the Mass Casualty Commission, one of the first people charged was the woman who survived the perpetrator's violence for years. She was charged. She was blamed. This is not an aberration. This is a consistent process of blaming each of us when we've experienced harm. The criminal justice system will continue to be inadequate, unresponsive and unaccountable to women until we address our own attitudes, beliefs and assumptions and our unwillingness to open our hearts to see the truth of what actually happens on the ugly side of who we are. We can be really harmful. We can be really awful. We can be very coercive, very controlling. We have to honour that this lives right here in this room. It lives in this country. It lives across every single postal code. Until we're honest about that, when each woman comes into the room to share their experience, they will be doubted. They will be questioned, and they will experience a moment of concern for their safety.
Conservative
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Ms. Boucher, thank you for sharing your story today.
I want to thank you. We often have academics and lawyers here, and it is incredibly helpful and generous of you to share with us your personal experiences of intimate partner violence. I'm hoping that I'll be able to ask you questions that will continue to draw out some of the points you're hoping to make.
I want to thank my colleague for reminding us that we are studying this bill in the context of 10 femicides having happened so far in Quebec this year, just in 2026.
In your opening remarks, you talked very powerfully about the idea that domestic violence isn't just an event but a process. I am hoping you can talk about the role played by the perpetrator's manipulation of people's emotions in the process.
Survivor of domestic violence, As an Individual
Thank you.
As I said, unfortunately, these men are extremely manipulative. Judgment from society also comes into play. I am a strong woman, but I was still sucked in. Domestic violence affects women of all ages from all walks of life. These men know how to win us over. They shower us with love early on and get us to fall in love with them quickly. They aren't stupid.
We know what we're experiencing isn't right. We know it's not right to stay and take it. I tried to leave dozens of times. We try, but they always suck us in. It's like they have two polar opposite personalities. They can be very nice but also very mean. While this is happening to us, there is a constant battle between our head and our heart. Our heart clings to the good times and the man we used to know. We hope we'll see the man we fell in love with again. Our head reminds us of the physical violence, the pain and the suffering. That's how they are able to control us. They placate us with gifts, nice dinners and rose petal-filled baths. They know how to make us feel like a queen. Unfortunately, the longer the relationship goes on—
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
In your experience, does that manipulation extend into the criminal justice system? Do the partners come into the process and try to manipulate the courts? Do they try to tell stories about why their sentences should be reduced, why they're really the victim in this scenario and why we should not be so hard on them?
Survivor of domestic violence, As an Individual
With my ex, one thing was clear: I wasn't going to withdraw my complaints. I filed 13 complaints against him, and I never withdrew them. He didn't manipulate me to get me to drop the charges. I made it clear to him that he was going to have to face the consequences of hitting me.
I never withdrew a complaint. I applied to have a section 810 publication ban withdrawn, but I never withdrew a complaint. I didn't experience that kind of manipulation in relation to the criminal justice process, but I did experience many other types of manipulation. They manipulate us so much that we lose sight of our values. I even alienated one of my children because of him. However, I was never manipulated when it came to the criminal justice process, because I stood firm until the end. I even stood in front of him and testified.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
I'm glad you did that.
Do you think there should be mandatory minimums in the criminal justice system for the things that lead up to murder but are still intimate partner violence?
Survivor of domestic violence, As an Individual
Sorry, but I didn't hear that.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Do you think there should be mandatory minimum sentences for the steps? You talked about the fact that we build up to murder, that murder is not a single event but a destination or the cumulative impact of this. I'm wondering whether or not you believe there should be mandatory minimum sentences for that.
Survivor of domestic violence, As an Individual
These men need to face harsher sentences from the beginning. That will send the message that what they are doing is unacceptable. It will deter them from committing increasingly violent acts, so they don't build up to something that can't be undone. They get too many slaps on the wrist now. A fine or probation isn't going to put any fear into them. It took 18 years before my ex was convicted.
Conservative
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. My questions will be for Mr. Khan.
Thank you so much for coming to testify today and for showing your appreciation for this bill.
I ran out of time in the last panel. I want to ask whether you have also been seeing that elderly men are being subjected to abuse and coercive control.
Legal Researcher and Analyst, National Institute on Ageing
At the National Institute on Ageing, we tend to look at data from other sources, such as some of the other witnesses here, when it comes to the actual prevalence of issues. Based on the data that we have found, the prevalence of coercive control is, in fact, directed towards women. It starts off with intimate partners when they're younger, and as they get older, it shifts. This is because of the dynamics whereby the dependency of older individuals shifts away from spouses more to their children and other loved ones, because of the dependence and trust and the need for them to help with their caregiving.
Based on what you've asked me, I will say that the answer is probably no, but that doesn't mean that it is not occurring.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
You mentioned, as did other panellists in the previous panel, that it's sons who are committing most of these abuses, not daughters. Is it more prevalent through sons? This has been repeated a few times.
Legal Researcher and Analyst, National Institute on Ageing
Based on the data that we have found, it's a bit difficult to just say that it is coercive control only. There are different elements to crimes that sons are committing. Some of them are due to mental illness.
The dynamics with older adults are.... Because of the love they have for their children, the child being the perpetrator makes it even more difficult for them to come forward to report, so while it could, in fact, be coercive control, it is not always coercive control.
When it comes to family violence, there seems to be an equal amount of abuse coming from extended families and children. When it comes to homicide, it's more prevalent among the sons, but when it comes to general abuse, it is the extended family that is perpetrating it. In fact, the last data I saw showed, I think, that it was almost equivalent, 35% and 35% daughters and sons, when it came to abuse and not just homicide.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
You're saying that usually this abuse is the result—if it's females, as well, doing it, daughters—of mental illness or substance abuse.
Legal Researcher and Analyst, National Institute on Ageing
No, I was saying that abuse isn't always due to coercive control. When it comes to the extreme form, it is not always coercive control, because coercive control tends to want to keep the victim alive—for want of a better word—because the reason they're doing it, essentially, is to extract economic benefits. That's a common element.
I want to touch just on why that may be the case. As you're getting older, you may have more assets. Your children and your relatives are looking to those as a means or a reason for coercively controlling you. The reasons change over time.
To say that violence is being perpetrated by only one gender when it comes to their children isn't quite accurate. With regard to the kinds of violence, yes, absolutely.