Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Thank you to all of the witnesses for taking the time to join this very important study.
Thank you, Chief Roskamp, for your testimony. I'd like to start with you.
We heard witnesses earlier in this meeting say that the instances of criminals committing crimes on bail are outliers. That was the exact word that one of them used. When criminals commit crimes on bail, they are outliers? Is that your experience on the ground as a police officer, Chief Roskamp?
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
That is not my experience. The vast majority of individuals committing criminal offences today are doing so in a pretrial, recidivist way.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
This is just for context. St. Thomas is a small community, relatively speaking, with fewer than 50,000 people.
What is the volume, if you had to estimate, of these prolific offenders, these individuals who you would attribute to engaging in chronic criminality? What is the burden that your police service is shouldering as a result of those individuals?
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
That's a great question.
I could give you some statistics. Between 2022 and 2025, our police service laid approximately 7,500 Criminal Code charges. Of those 7,500 Criminal Code charges, 2,000 were for failing to comply with court disposition. Consistently, year after year, we see about 33% of our charges being for a failure to comply. Whether it's intimate partner violence; chronic criminality from small, petty theft or petty crime; or even homicide, we're seeing failures to comply as a major pressing point.
Individual offenders understand the legal system well. They know that bail conditions are rarely enforced. They anticipate delays in the court proceedings. They recognize that even serious charges may not lead to long-term detention. In fact, we're terming them as “gaming the system”.
Are there any other areas you would like answered in regard to that, Mr. Lawton?
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
I think you've addressed the question very well there. Nearly one-third of all of the charges you laid in that particular period of time were bail violations.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Explain to me, if you can, Chief Roskamp, the effect this has, in particular, on smaller communities.
Ten years ago, before the Liberal government formed, there was an attitude in St. Thomas and communities of similar sizes across the country that, basically, these were all big-city problems, and now we've seen this trickle down.
What is the effect on your resourcing, given that you are comparatively smaller than the cities of Toronto and Vancouver?
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
The rise of violence and chronic criminality in small communities has far-reaching effects. It creates widespread fear and trauma in communities and undermines the sense of safety of our residents. Violent incidents can reduce investment, harm tourism and increase municipal budgets. My budget as a police service has increased. Over time, the community's identity shifts.
We had, between 2022 and 2024, a 22% increase in our violent crime severity index, although we had, among national highs, a 32% reduction in non-violent crime severity; that's your break and enters, your mischiefs and your minor thefts.
We're proud of that, but they're such fragile gains that we have to be careful, and we're looking at this chronic criminality as being such a pressure point for smaller communities. In 2024, we unfortunately experienced two homicides, and in one of those homicides, a young lady was shot and killed in a parking lot in a downtown corridor. The individual who is alleged to have committed this crime was out on bail. It affects communities of all sizes. You do not have to be in large metropolitan centres or in the GTA for this to affect your community, and we're seeing that manifested in a big way post-COVID. Chronic criminality has lasting serious impacts on communities.
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
Simply put, I believe Bill C-75 has created less safe communities; that is my opinion, based on a near 30-year career in policing. Releasing individuals at the earliest opportunity with the least onerous conditions has gone too far.
It does seem as though almost every individual who faces the court system is released, and to be quite honest, offenders know this, and that's part of the gaming that's occurring today, and that's real.
Our main criticism of Bill C-75 is that it removed tools that allowed judges to account for long-term criminal history in compliance behaviour, resulting in more frequent releases. Bill C-48 was a step in the right direction, but it had gaps; it didn't allow for judges to consider anything beyond five-year limitations with regards to prior convictions.
We're left with the position we're in now. All we're asking for is better court-level decision-making frameworks, among other areas, and I can get into those if you'd like.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
That will have to be with another member of Parliament. Thank you for your time, Chief Roskamp.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today and participating in this very important study.
Mr. Rahim, in March 2023, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association said bail debates were being driven by rhetoric rather than evidence. From your perspective, why is it so important that Parliament keep its focus on evidence-based reforms rather than slogans?
Director, Criminal Justice Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
That is actually what is going to lead to an improvement in public safety. To simply not collect the data about the patterns we have seen means that adjustments to the bail system won't be properly assessed or implemented.
The Senate committee on legal and constitutional affairs, in its study of Bill C-48, made this exact point. They said it is long past time for us to collect data about the system. Yet, between then and now, we have not seen any new information to help inform policy-makers like the ones here today to make decisions that are rooted in evidence. That's how you ensure we have the right balance between the presumption of innocence, those other charter rights and public safety.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Latimer, in your view, how should provinces and the federal government work together to ensure that there are enough judges, Crown prosecutors and correctional resources to make bail reforms meaningful in real life day-to-day practice?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
It's always a challenge working across jurisdictions. I think some of this has been the premiers pointing at the federal government thinking that legislative reform alone will actually correct some of the manifest problems in the bail system, and it won't. It will require collaboration, more programming and the supports in place to make the system work. The delays are too long, people are subjected to conditions in the community for too long, they're subjected to remand for too long and there are too many delays in the system.
The whole system needs to improve, but more importantly, there need to be programs in place that help people respect their bail conditions so you don't have to lay as many non-compliance charges as they clearly are in some communities, because people are showing up for their bail hearings. They're respecting those conditions, and some of the bail verification programs have proven to be very successful in helping that. Bail navigators in Manitoba have proven to be very successful in helping people to comply with their conditions.
It will take an effort across all jurisdictions to really make the changes that need to be made to what is a very dysfunctional system at this point.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Roskamp, do you believe provincial courts have the adequate capacity to conduct timely bail hearings and risk assessments?
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
Would we like to see more court time and more time given to conduct bail hearings? Yes. The answer is that we would like to see more time given to this area and more consideration given to safety risks.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
More specifically in terms of provincial courts, do you think that they have the capacity to be able to conduct this work?
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
There's always room for improvement in that area.
Liberal
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
I would suggest that more resources be put towards provincial courts, more judges, more Crown attorneys and perhaps longer hours in courts.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Do you believe that this is a joint effort with regard to different levels of government, provincial, municipal and federal?
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
I'm going to go back over to you, Ms. Latimer.
Public confidence in bail often comes down to whether conditions are enforced properly. Based on your experience, what steps would strengthen the system so that people released on bail are supervised consistently and safely?
