Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
Is the committee okay to extend the time for the length of whatever the snafu was?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
It was about 10 minutes.
Mr. Fortin, you have five minutes for your round of questioning.
Bloc
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I didn't have five minutes left; I never got to ask the witness any questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
We're going to blame the clerk.
The clock is running now. You have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Good afternoon, Mr. Roskamp. I assume you can hear me this time. Thank you for being here.
First of all, do you believe in rehabilitation?
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
In your opinion, is rehabilitation easier for young offenders under the age of 18 than for offenders aged 30 or 40, for example?
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
Just so I understand the question correctly, do I understand that rehabilitation is easier? Is that what the question is, sir?
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I want to know whether it's easier for young offenders than for adult offenders.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Currently, the Criminal Code provides that people are released on a promise to appear at their trial at a later date. They are detained only if, first, there is a doubt they will show up for trial; second, it is believed that their release would be dangerous and that their detention would be better for the safety of the public; or third, it is believed that their release may bring the administration of justice into disrepute in the eyes of the public. That means that the public would be shocked to know that the person was being released, given the seriousness of their crimes.
Do you think those criteria are adequate? If not, what should be changed?
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
I think changes should be made to the criteria. We need to acknowledge root causes where relevant, such as the social determinants of community health and those suffering from homelessness, poverty, substance use disorders and mental health disorders.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Yes, but how should the criteria be changed?
Currently, individuals are kept in custody if they are a danger to society, if there is a doubt that they will appear or if it is believed that their release would bring the administration of justice into disrepute.
At first glance, I would tend to think that these are good criteria, but that may not be the case. That's why I'm asking you how these criteria should be changed.
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
I would suggest, respectfully, that in the majority of cases, that's not happening. For chronic, strategic and violent repeat offenders, we're looking for much more consideration to be given for public safety, offender accountability and stronger judicial discretion, giving judges the ability to make those discretions sooner and not releasing at the earliest opportunity with the least onerous conditions.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Roskamp, I'm going to switch gears and talk about young offenders.
We're seeing more and more criminal organizations recruiting young people to commit crimes such as car thefts, which are increasing these days, but also violent crimes. These young people are recruited simply because they won't be charged as adults and it will be easier for them. I find that revolting, and I'm not the only one. I suspect you also share that view.
What do we do for these young people? Are we going to continue to try to rehabilitate them? I think that would be appropriate. More importantly, what about adults who incite or recruit a young person to commit a crime? Shouldn't we be tougher on them?
You have maybe a minute to respond. Please go ahead.
Chief, St. Thomas Police Service
First of all, with youth, we should do all we can to rehabilitate them to try to turn their lives around and help them lead healthy pathways in society.
In terms of those who are inciting and driving these serious crimes, of which even St. Thomas has been victim in recent days, we need to seek out those individuals and hold them accountable to the law—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Could it be double the sentence? Should adults who recruit a young person to steal a car be subject to double the sentence they would receive if they had stolen the car themselves? Does that sound reasonable?
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Roskamp.
I don't have much time left.
Ms. Latimer, in your opinion, how should the criteria for keeping an accused in custody be changed?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I think there needs to be a refocusing. I think the criteria on the first two, likelihood of absconding and whether they'll commit an offence if released, are good. Predictive behaviour is always challenging. I think that the best predictor is looking at recent past behaviour. If they're in a crime cycle, I think you need to keep them detained in the interests of public safety.
I think that the problem is that you're getting far too many others who are in there for less serious reasons. It's an expensive system and a dysfunctional system when you do that. You need to find constructive alternatives to help people respect their conditions so that they can appear before a court for their trials.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you to all the witnesses.
Mr. Rahim, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to ask you any questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
We're now into the second round. With the extension, we should be able to complete a full second round if I shave a minute off each of the last two, being Liberal and Conservative. That would give five, five, two and a half, four and four, if that's okay.