Library of Parliament Committee on May 3rd, 2018

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

In order to take this project to fruition, the project of ensuring the transparency of those files, are you expecting an order or direction from the committee, or are you going to wait another four years? In fact, the committee had not met for four years. Are you waiting for Privy Council to make the request? Could you tell us where the blockage is in that system so that we may succeed and implement the directive given in 2014?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

We don't want to put the library or Parliament at risk because of accessibility. That is why we have not moved on this file.

In the meantime, we began discussions with the House and our administration counterparts, who undertook discussions with the Privy Council. I am not aware of the reasons why, but they began their work with the petitions. I think the 2014 motion had more to do with the questions on the order paper.

In light of the progress that was made at the House, we decided to pause to see what the discussions with the House would lead to. According to recent conversations that were held last week, they are continuing their discussions, and apparently Privy Council is now more willing to move forward.

I'm not certain that there is a “blockage”, but as my colleague suggested, the intervention should really be brought to bear on the production of the document as such. But we are not in a position to do that.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

What do you believe is the mission statement of the Library of Parliament, for you? What's your principal function? What are you supposed to be doing? I hear a lot of things about a lot of activities. You're doing a lot of things. If you had to do one, or two, or three things, what would they be?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

We want to be your trusted source of information. Every day, you are the recipient of many sources of information, and people want you to pay attention to various things. We want you to be confident in coming to us and asking for validation, for synthesis of what's out there, in a fashion that meets your needs in what you need to do.

For that, we need various elements. We need the researchers. We need the collection. We need different elements like that. I think that's really what we have to do for Parliament.

I don't know if I'm going to make friends with the library community, but I think we're a knowledge centre, an information centre. We call it a library because that's how it was when it was first created, but that concept goes much further in all the information aspects. We hope we can do that for Parliament.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Thank you.

Senator Duffy.

[Michael Duffy, Senator, Prince Edward Island (Cavendish), ISG]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you Madame L'Heureux and your team for joining us today. We have been looking forward to this for some time.

In addition to the many other things you organize, you have also organized copyright seminars for lawmakers, which is very important because right now we see all the stories about Cambridge Analytica, Facebook, all the stuff in social media, and of course, the House of Commons has a copyright review under way.

What's the library's policy when it comes to distributing copyright material to users without payment or permission?

[Sonia Bebbington]

Many of our electronic subscriptions are governed by a user license agreement, and we respect those user license agreements. Most of those are scoped based on a client base, a number we provide to the vendor, and then that will partly determine the subscription price.

We do report our user base to those vendors, and we use the resources within the restrictions of those licensing limitations.

[Michael Duffy]

I'm sure you have seen in the news that there are lots of arts and creative people who are very concerned about infringement of their copyright. This is the way they live. If people ignore the copyright or take stuff and don't pay for it, it's very injurious to that community.

In your work on copyright, have you had any discussions with this movement?

[Sonia Bebbington]

We're certainly very aware, and discuss copyright internally at the library. We do contribute, as well, to Access Copyright, which is a Government of Canada level licence for use of content. We are a library, and we have some provisions under fair dealing in copyright.

[Michael Duffy]

Do you always follow the copyright rules?

[Sonia Bebbington]

Yes.

[Michael Duffy]

I have a further question about accessibility. Like Madam Quach, I'm very interested in the digitization and the revolution that's under way.

I want to ask two things. What is the additional material required to make documents accessible?

[Sonia Bebbington]

Making documents accessible is a question of technology. Accessibility requirements have to do largely with metadata tagging. Those tags provide instructions to adaptive technologies to instruct the technology how to read the content, which makes it easier for somebody with a print disability to navigate and interpret the content. It's largely a software and technology and a metadata question.

[Michael Duffy]

Yes. It's embedded in the document when you first create it.

[Sonia Bebbington]

That's correct.

[Michael Duffy]

Why would you say that document creators in government are so reluctant to give you the originals? Is it out of a fear that they will somehow be edited or changed in some way, subtle or otherwise? Is it only by putting it on paper or in a PDF that they can be certain that what they intend to be the final product gets put up on your website or elsewhere?

Is there a concern with security?

[Sonia Bebbington]

I can't necessarily speak from the perspective of the government departments submitting the content.

I'm unable to answer that question.

[Michael Duffy]

Does it seem logical to you that this would be a concern?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

I think some of the challenges that the executive is experiencing is that these documents come from a lot of different departments, and they come in all shapes and sizes and using different products. It could be a Word document. It could be an Excel spreadsheet. It could be a PowerPoint presentation.

The coordination of all of those documents in a format that's accessible and uniform, in terms of transmission to the House for tabling, I suspect is at the core of what they're trying to solve in their conversations—how to do it. It's intensive work. I don't know to what extent there is concern about tampering, if I can paraphrase what you're saying. We're not able to talk about that.

From a process and production perspective, clearly the shapes and sizes of different things purchased by a variety of departments are adding to the complexity of the process.

[Michael Duffy]

This may be something the committee could suggest the government find a government-wide solution for, that creation problem.

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Thank you, Senator.

Mr. Saroya.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is to Sonia L'Heureux.

Since you're leaving in June, with all your experience, if it can do some good for the next person coming in, what are the issues that you faced in your lifetime that tied your hands so that you couldn't achieve what you wanted to achieve? Was it money, technology, manpower, or something else? This is just to help us do a better job for the future leader.

[Sonia L'Heureux]

That's a big question. I think that at various times it could be any of those factors.

What I find very helpful, and as many would say, is that though the upcoming closure of Centre Block will be disruptive, it will also be an opportunity for us to look at our service offerings and how equipped we are to support you. It's forcing us to rethink how we provide our services and products to Parliament, because our environment is going to change. We're having to think about what it is going to look like not only for the next year or two but for a 10-year period. Those are things we cannot easily forecast. What is really important, I think—and I hope my successor will do this—is to always be aware of and sensitive to how you work and how you wish to work. We will be developing new branches that are going to be in the new buildings.

One of the things, for example, that I'm aware of and that I talk to my colleagues about is that you have offices in many different buildings. You're going to be what I call a transient population. You're going to go from your office to maybe the main chamber and then a committee room. With all of these movements, how can we help you? How can we provide a space for you that's helpful to you as you go about your business on a daily fashion? At the same time, somebody in your office may want to call us for a document or an analysis, or may need somebody for a guided tour. We need to be agile. That's why our strategic outlook is to look at how we can remain agile and relevant to your needs. We have to be very open to what you're telling us about what you need. Sometimes it might be money to be able to do it. Other times it's just being understanding and aware.

When we ask you if you were satisfied with the service, that's a little bit of what we're after.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I'm confused. You mentioned that the documents are created in digital and then, in the House, changed to paper. When you want to put it back in the system, there is something wrong when you go from the digital to the paper and back to this. Are we looking for some sort of equipment, or is this something where we are short-sighted and we are not helping you to create that. Is this some technical issue, a money issue, or something else? I'm confused. Can you clarify it?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

The challenge is.... We're starting to drift into procedure here, and I am by no means a procedural person. I don't have those answers. There's a relationship between the producers of those documents and how they're being tabled in the chamber. What I get at the library is what the House provides us, and it's in print.

I'm not in a position to ask the House to give me something in a digital format. They don't have it. It's a question of who can provide that. That's when you start drifting into procedure, and I'm in no way able to answer that question.

I don't know if my colleague has more information...? No.