Medical Assistance in Dying Committee on May 30th, 2022

[Stan Kutcher]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses.

My questions are for Ms. Landry. I have two questions, but before I ask them, I want to note our appreciation for your coming and talking about a very personal and difficult topic, having lived experience with MAID. We really appreciate your coming and talking about a real experience, not hypothetical experience. Thank you so much.

The first question is what difference did it make to you and your family that your father could make a decision to choose MAID as an end-of-life action?

[Jocelyne Landry]

My father was among that generation of men who took control of their lives, built their nest, started a family and made decisions throughout their lives. It was important for him, and for us, to be able to make informed choices and decisions. And this decision was something he had thought about. You might say that he decided to put an end to his suffering just as, when he was growing up on the farm, an injured horse or dog would be put out of its suffering.

Making a decision like that was important for my Dad. He didn't want to suffer any more. He had already suffered enough.

I am happy and proud to live in a country that gave my father that option. He didn't have to travel to Switzerland or anywhere else to have access to it.

[Stan Kutcher]

The other question is whether you could please share with us how you and your family prepared for your father's death by knowing when it would be. Could you consider how different it might have been for you and your family if he had died without any preparation?

[Jocelyne Landry]

It's a very interesting question.

It was during COVID. It was two years ago. We were in lockdown at the time.

It would be easier for me to continue in French, if that's all right.

Because it was in the early days of the COVID‑19 pandemic, we kept the house as long as we could. He was of course receiving palliative care at the time, through the outpatient service from the hospital that would come and provide services at home when required. But Dad wanted to die at the hospital, not at home, probably because he would have found it difficult if Mom were to die at home. He therefore insisted that he be taken to the hospital. Once in the hospital, though, he couldn't have any visitors. Mom was also over 80 years old. So I found it unacceptable for her to be supporting Dad without any other help from the family. So I contacted the province's Office of the Chief Medical Officer of Health for permission to have at least one of the children providing support. We received permission. I was there the day before Dad left us, and my brother was there the day he left.

The preparatory process was gradual. For a number of years, Dad had been telling us that once he no longer had any quality of life and wanted to put an end to his suffering, he would request medical assistance in dying. He came to that decision quite a long time beforehand. He had spoken to his doctor, but that's not who performed the procedure. The Restigouche medical team in charge of the procedure was very conscientious and did their work highly professionally. Not only that, but for Dad, the wait was a little too long. He would have liked to go to the hospital and for it to be done within a few hours or days. But it took a lot longer. Towards the end, he was saying that waiting to die was taking too long. He nevertheless joked with us right up to the final minute, but he was ready, and we said goodbye to him.

When I drove him to the hospital with Mom, we were crying, of course, but I respected his decision and it was important for us to tell him so. We understood his suffering and respected his choice. I think that it was important for him as well as for us.

For my mother, the experience was different. When her father had died, she was with him, and he died a peaceful, natural death. She always used to say that her father's death was like a candle burning out. For my father, however, the emotional experience was different. He was her spouse, they were the same age, and they had shared 60 years together.

It was therefore more distressing and difficult for her, because the process took a lot longer than she had expected. After the drugs had been injected, it took about 20 minutes for his heart to stop beating. But even though she found it distressing and hard, she respected his decision.

Up to that point, my mother had always said that when she was ill near the end of life, she would opt for that solution. However, after her experience with my father, she didn't want her children to have to go through it again.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Landry.

Over to you, Senator Dalphond.

[Pierre Dalphond]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their testimony, and we are grateful to them for having been here.

My question is for Mr. Conrad Saulis.

Mr. Saulis, I'm happy to see you back. We met two years ago when we were discussing the previous situation of the bill.

I assume you have read the report from the task force. One of the task force's recommendations is to make sure there is consultation with first nations, Inuit and Métis peoples to make the MAID system incorporate indigenous perspectives and other factors relevant to their communities. The report also notes that, to date, engagement with indigenous peoples in Canada concerning MAID has yet to occur. I understand you will be in agreement with the task force's recommendation to engage in conversations with first nations about making systems that will be culturally sensitive and that relate to the spiritual values of the first nations.

[Conrad Saulis]

Thank you very much for the question.

When we're talking about medical assistance in dying.... It's such a foreign concept in the first nations world, in my experience growing up on the reserve, and in all the work I've done and continue to do. As I said in a previous answer, conversations are always required and necessary for governments, as well as medical service providers, to understand the values, morals and perspectives. We look at the world through the teachings of the medicine wheel—the emotional, the spiritual, the physical and the mental. Those are very real to us. Those were almost lost to us. Conversations are always going to be necessary. Even after conversations are had, more conversations are still going to be needed, so whatever dialogue...whomever....

I know there are many first nations and indigenous people involved in the medical field, as both practitioners and analysts. I mentioned Joyce Echaquan a while ago—what she went through and the medical experience she had. Sadly, it's not any different for many of us who go from our first nation community—called a reserve—to the local hospital in town. We just know it's not a welcoming environment. How do you trust that? How do you trust an environment where you're looked down upon? The findings of the Wabano health centre here in Ottawa, as well as the Ottawa Aboriginal Coalition, are the opinions and findings of people they spoke with, and who responded to interviews and questions. Look at those conclusions. I really hope you hear from the Wabano health clinic and Ottawa Aboriginal Coalition. I'm sure they would have a lot of thoughtful and meaningful things to say based on their experiences.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Saulis.

Senator Martin, you have three minutes.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Yonah Martin]

Thank you to all of our witnesses.

I'll end with a quick question for Mr. Saulis to give him an opportunity to tell us what the federal government can do to care for indigenous youth instead of offering MAID.

We're discussing what would happen with mature minors. You said you spoke to youth before this, and I think your voice is very important this evening. What can the federal government do?

[Conrad Saulis]

I believe there is such a vacuum of youth programming and support for indigenous youth. One of the groups we're working with is an indigenous group based out of Cape Breton, Unama'ki, in Nova Scotia. They struggle and are challenged to find any kind of funding to support them to be able to have the conversations they want to have.

That's definitely one of those things. The federal government needs to have a much stronger and better program directed towards indigenous youth so that they, themselves, can come together; they, themselves, can be their own leaders; and they, themselves, can identify the things they want to talk about.

I know that invariably they're going to want to talk about language and culture and being able to connect with elders and traditional knowledge keepers and land-based learning and things like that, but they're also very serious people. I think that if those kinds of resources are provided to indigenous youth, as well as safeguards within whatever legislation and whatever policies that are in the regulations attached to the legislation.... Safeguards are needed to protect the indigenous youth of these lands.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Yonah Martin]

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

We've come to the end of the meeting. I'd like to thank the witnesses who were with us this evening.

Ms. Jocelyne Landry, I'd like to thank you for your highly personal testimony about your father.

I would also like to thank the representatives of the Quebec Intellectual Disability Society. And I'd like to thank you, Ms. Duranleau and Mr. Ragot, For your testimony and for answering our questions.

Finally, Mr. Conrad Saulis, thank you very much for coming this evening and providing us with the indigenous perspective on this very important subject. We very much appreciate it.

With that, this brings us to the end of this evening's committee meeting.

We will be meeting next Monday at 6:30. Thank you.

We are adjourned.