Evidence of meeting #22 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was request.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Adelina Iftene  Associate Professor, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
David Lussier  Geriatric Physician, As an Individual
Félix Pageau  Geriatrician and Researcher, As an Individual
Joint Vice-Chair  Hon. Marie-Françoise Mégie (Quebec, (Rougemont), GSI)
Blair Bigham  Doctor, Emergency and Critical Care Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual
Dorothy Pringle  Professor Emeritus, Lawrence S. Bloomberg Faculty of Nursing, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Sandra Demontigny  As an Individual

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much for that. I appreciate your brevity.

Dr. Lussier, our colleague, Mr. Arseneault, talked a bit about the improper care given in certain diagnoses. I believe that all of us have heard the case of a veteran of Canada being offered MAID in what would appear to be a significantly inappropriate case, without access to mental health support. That's certainly something to consider.

You talked a lot about the difficulty in judging if people with dementia or other kinds of neurocognitive decline have capacity. Is this going to be left to an individual basis all the time, or is it going to be left to all individual physicians to help make that decision? That becomes very difficult.

Again, I'll come back to that. You did speak briefly about safeguards. What safeguards do you think we need to have in place for advance requests?

7:20 p.m.

Geriatric Physician, As an Individual

Dr. David Lussier

I think we have to make sure the advance request is done with a person knowing what they are requesting and make sure they know all the options available. We have to make sure that when or if they are implemented, they are done in the proper way and that we have a review system to make sure there is good medical care and good implementation of the advance request.

I think these are the main safeguards we have to put in place.

7:20 p.m.

The Joint Vice-Chair Hon. Marie-Françoise Mégie

Thank you, Mr. Ellis.

Mr. Anandasangaree, you have the floor for three minutes.

October 25th, 2022 / 7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is for Professor Iftene.

I'm just wondering if you could walk us through the process for someone wanting to seek MAID who is currently in a penitentiary. Could you walk us through the steps and maybe comment on how many cases we have seen over the past five or six years since MAID has come into action?

7:20 p.m.

Associate Professor, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Dr. Adelina Iftene

For the number of cases, the answer is that I don't know. When I filed through the Access to Information Act, I was told after one year that it's too private to answer. The lack of accountability and oversight is so significant that we cannot access any reliable information on this issue. That's how serious the matter is.

The Office of the Correctional Investigator reports three cases of MAID somewhere two years ago, but we don't know how many people asked.

The procedure itself basically says that the individual has to apply and is assessed by the prison physician, so it's not an independent assessor; it's somebody who works in the prison system. If the prison physician says that the person is eligible for MAID, then they would be seen by a second assessor, who should be somebody independent in the community. If the prison physician says they are not eligible, the assessment ends there, which, to my understanding, is quite different from what happens in the community.

That is briefly the process itself. If the individual receives MAID, again, the matter ends there. Normally, CSC has an obligation to conduct reviews of all the deaths that occurred in prison, natural or not natural, and obviously the causes that led there. They are exempted by legislation to do so in cases of MAID, which, of course, is a significant problem in terms of oversight and in terms of the lack of safeguards for how these assessments are done, what else is being made available and what the alternatives are. Right now, as it stands, it's particularly problematic, as I said, even leaving aside the discussion of lack of release mechanisms.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Is the initial assessor qualified to provide MAID assessment?

7:20 p.m.

Associate Professor, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Dr. Adelina Iftene

I don't know what qualifications they have. They are the prison physician, so whether every prison physician is otherwise qualified or not, I don't know. My guess is that they are not always qualified. It would be hard to believe that was the case.

The other issue, I would think, is independence. I think there is a problem when the prison physician is somebody who's working on contract for CSC.

7:20 p.m.

The Joint Vice-Chair Hon. Marie-Françoise Mégie

Mr. Thériault, you have two minutes.

7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC

Dr. Lussier, we could pick up where we left off a little earlier.

Please tell us about pleasant dementia?

7:20 p.m.

Geriatric Physician, As an Individual

Dr. David Lussier

People are always somewhat reluctant to discuss pleasant dementia. What we call pleasant dementia is a condition that affects people who are happy in their everyday lives and who exhibit no objectifiable suffering. They don't necessarily recognize their loved ones or have any idea of the day or date but are happy in the moment. For example, they are happy eating and taking part in small-scale activities. They appear entirely satisfied and happy.

Should we consider that these people are suffering enough to make an advance request? That's a big question.

Some people say they're happy now. However, if they had seen themselves in this condition before they fell ill, they might have decided they wouldn't want to live with that situation. Some feel that, if all they love doing is eating and taking part in small-scale activities at the long-term care centre, that's not a life worth living. It constitutes existential suffering for them and they prefer to receive medical assistance in dying. However, people may also adapt and become happy.

We talked about refusal earlier. It's all the more difficult to administer medical assistance in dying to someone who seems happy and absolutely doesn't remember requesting it several years earlier. That's the problem with pleasant dementia.

7:25 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC

In that sense, unless the third-party says that an assessment would be necessary in accordance with the patient's wishes, the attending team can't simply trigger the assessment process because they consider it necessary. Consequently, the pleasant dementia issue should be included in the discussions involved in the multiple assessments process we discussed earlier.

7:25 p.m.

Geriatric Physician, As an Individual

Dr. David Lussier

Yes, I think it should also be involved in that when…

7:25 p.m.

The Joint Vice-Chair Hon. Marie-Françoise Mégie

You have five seconds left. Go ahead.

7:25 p.m.

Geriatric Physician, As an Individual

Dr. David Lussier

When patients make their request, they could state that they wish to receive medical assistance in dying if they fall into a state of pleasant dementia.

7:25 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC

All right, thank you.

7:25 p.m.

The Joint Vice-Chair Hon. Marie-Françoise Mégie

I now give the floor to my colleague, Mr. Garneau.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

We will now go to Mr. MacGregor, perhaps?

7:25 p.m.

The Joint Vice-Chair Hon. Marie-Françoise Mégie

I had forgotten you, Mr. MacGregor.

7:25 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dr. Lussier, I'd like to turn to you. You heard my previous intervention with Dr. Pageau, your colleague. I mentioned the testimony we had about how there can be clearly defined, objectively assessable criteria. That may be in response to his concerns about interpretation. I want to invite you to offer any comments on that.

Also, I know you've said that you would like advance requests to be available post-diagnosis, but do you have any opinion on how often that advance request should be renewed or reviewed so that we can be sure the patient's opinion is not changing as they progress?

7:25 p.m.

Geriatric Physician, As an Individual

Dr. David Lussier

In response to the first question, in keeping with what my colleague was saying earlier, yes, there can be objectifiable symptoms. If, according to someone, having both stool and urine incontinence is a form of suffering that is intolerable and objectifiable to that patient, who has in fact repeatedly experienced this incontinence, it can be a criterion that could be used to act upon the advance request.

As for the number of times the request should be reassessed, that really depends on each person and the stage they have reached. The process is designed simply to ensure that the wish has remained stable over time and that it factors in all the changes associated with dementia.

7:25 p.m.

The Joint Vice-Chair Hon. Marie-Françoise Mégie

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

It's now time to give the chair to my colleague Mr. Garneau.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Colleagues, this brings our panel to a close.

I'd like to sincerely thank our witnesses today.

Ms. Iftene, thank you for shedding some light on the issue of MAID in the context of correctional services.

Dr. Lussier and Dr. Pageau, thank you for your presentations and your answers to our questions on this exceedingly complex subject of advance requests for medical assistance in dying. Thank you for having given us your time this evening.

We will now pause for a few minutes to prepare for the next group of witnesses.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

We will start the second panel. I note that we're starting seven minutes late, so we'll carry on until 8:37 to have the full hour.

I'd like to make a few administrative comments before we get going.

To the witnesses, before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, or my co-chair does. I remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. We have translation and it's a challenging task to translate, especially when people speak too quickly. Interpretation in this video conference will work as it does in an in-person committee meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. When you're not speaking, please mute your microphone.

With that, I would like to welcome our witnesses for panel two, who are here to discuss advance requests.

We have with us this evening Dr. Blair Bigham, doctor, emergency and critical care medicine at McMaster University, by video conference. We have Dr. Dorothy Pringle, professor emeritus at the Lawrence S. Bloomberg faculty of nursing at the University of Toronto, also by video conference. We hope our third panellist this evening, Sandra Demontigny, will join us in the next few minutes.

We will get going at this point. Thank you for joining us. The way we do this is that each of the witnesses will have a five-minute opening statement, and then we'll move on with the questions.

Dr. Bigham, if you're ready, please go ahead. You have five minutes.

7:35 p.m.

Dr. Blair Bigham Doctor, Emergency and Critical Care Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual

Good evening.

It's a privilege to speak to you today in my capacity as an emergency and ICU doctor, as a scientist, and as an author of a book on how shifts in technology and society have changed our relationship with death.

Please accept my apologies for attending this meeting while on call in an intensive care unit north of Ottawa. I was invited to appear before this committee after I had committed to serving patients this evening during the Ontario health human resource crisis. Should I have to step away for a medical emergency, I hope it is only briefly.

In my 17 years as a paramedic and doctor, I have seen many people die, but the people I see die are usually different from those we think of when we talk about palliative care or MAID. Emergency department and ICU patients sometimes die slowly from chronic disease like cancer or congestive heart failure. Other deaths come quite suddenly and unexpectedly after a car crash, a severe infection or a ruptured aneurysm.

Many of my patients hope to recover fully and live a long life. To accomplish that, teams of doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists and other professional lifesavers jump into action using medicines and machines, scalpels and science to avert death and pull people back from the cliff's edge. But at the time we initiate resuscitation, the outcome is far from certain. Sometimes no amount of drugs or devices can save a life. Sometimes I cannot make you better.

A modern dilemma has emerged with advances in medicine, which has led to a crisis in dying. For some patients, after a while it become clear that the machines keeping them alive cannot help them recover but are preventing them from dying. Tethered to machines that have failed to restore their health, they exist in a lineal space between alive and dead. Many of us would not want to exist in this way.

Individual values and predetermined wishes are already used by hospital teams to place limits on medical interventions, set goals for care, and alleviate pain and suffering. The rub comes in that the well-intentioned application of technology to save a life often fails to do so but prevents patients from crossing the finish line to die with dignity and peace.

Some might argue that pragmatic similarities between MAID and our current practice of withdrawing life-sustaining technology exist. For some, withdrawal of technology results in nearly immediate death, and comfort is maintained with various medications. But for others, withdrawal of technology results in a lingering that is undignified and sometimes distressing. Even when technology is removed, death, though certain to come, can be slow to arrive.

It's my opinion that Canadians deserve to have a say in their own ending, because now, for the first time in human history, technology can and does prevent nature from taking its course. There is likely a larger role for MAID to play in acute-care settings where consciousness and the ability to consent are often compromised.

Adjacent to the question of MAID is the broader one of how we can better inform Canadians of their choices during unrecoverable critical illness and engage their loved ones in discussions around end-of-life values before tragedy strikes. The challenge that I believe this committee must consider is one that all Canadians must contemplate. Prognostication is often uncertain and always complex. Knowing when the likelihood of a successful recovery falls short of the medical team's capabilities and a patient's own wishes is fraught with difficulty.

I hope today I can assist your deliberations around how advance directives regarding medical assistance in dying can contribute to alleviating this modern-day death dilemma so that no Canadian dies too soon or too late.

Thank you.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Dr. Bigham.

We'll now go to Dr. Dorothy Pringle for five minutes.