Evidence of meeting #26 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was decision.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dawn Davies  Pediatric Palliative Care Physician, As an Individual
Cheryl Milne  Executive Director, David Asper Centre for Constitutional Rights, As an Individual
Randi Zlotnik Shaul  Director, Department of Bioethics, Hospital for Sick Children
Joint Chair  Hon. Yonah Martin (Senator, British Columbia, C)
Marie-Françoise Mégie  senator, Quebec (Rougement), ISG
Stanley Kutcher  Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG
Pierre Dalphond  Senator, Quebec, PSG
Pamela Wallin  Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG
Caroline Marcoux  As an Individual
Roderick McCormick  Professor, As an Individual
Timothy Ehmann  Medical Doctor, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, As an Individual

8:05 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you for that.

For my last couple of minutes, I just want to turn to Dr. Ehmann.

Dr. Ehmann, I listened to your opening statement and I understand that you have a very strong position on this matter, but you also had the benefit of listening to a very personal story. I'm just wondering, sir: Is your position on this absolute? If you're dealing with a minor who has an incurable disease like cancer, who's obviously living through such pain and suffering, are you as a doctor of the position that the only option available to them is to go through palliative sedation? To your mind is there ever an exception to this, or is your position absolute on this, that it should be denied until age 18 in all cases, no matter the circumstances?

8:05 p.m.

Medical Doctor, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, As an Individual

Dr. Timothy Ehmann

I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. Let me share a story with you.

I had a 17-year-old adolescent whom I cared for back in 2018. Her mother had died when she was seven. For the next three years she was sexually assaulted repeatedly by a family member. Between the ages of 10 and 12 she immigrated to Canada. In Canada, after a handful of years, at the age of 15 she was kicked out by her father. She lived independently, went to school full-time, and worked in fast food for pretty much 40 hours a week.

I met her in the emergency department. She was suicidal. I admitted her to hospital. I was the first person that she shared the sexual abuse with. After sharing that with me, she fell apart. She had full-blown PTSD and depression. I sat with that child, day in and day out, with her sobbing, asking, “Dr. Ehmann, let me die. Let me go home. I want to die.” It was the worst psychological suffering I've ever witnessed. It affected me profoundly, personally. She spent six months on our in-patient unit, in and out.

I can tell you, I wondered about that question of what is the right thing to do. At the end of the day, however, when they are faced with their patients who are suffering from a medical condition, a mental health condition or from life circumstances, the physician's rule is always to protect and preserve life—and I am committed to that.

I don't know how she's doing now. I know that she made it through those hospitalizations and recovered, in part because of the service that we provided in the hospital. Because she was there for six months, my colleagues were all involved with it as well.

8:05 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you, Dr. Ehmann.

At this time, I will return this back to my joint chair.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you.

As you know, members, we have to break in 13 minutes because of a vote. To allow each of the senators a chance to speak, I'm afraid I'm going to have to limit them to two minutes per senator.

Ms. Mégie, you have the floor for two minutes.

8:05 p.m.

senator, Quebec (Rougement), ISG

Marie-Françoise Mégie

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses. Thank you to Ms. Marcoux for talking to us about something so personal. My question now is for Dr. Ehmann. If Professor McCormick has time, he can answer too.

Dr. Ehmann, everyone understands your position. In your opinion, should the government establish a legislative framework for this type of request or wait for a minor and their family to take the issue to court?

Is there a good way for the federal government to address this issue?

8:10 p.m.

Medical Doctor, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, As an Individual

Dr. Timothy Ehmann

That's a very good question. I probably do not know the answer to it. I'm a physician, not a lawyer or a parliamentarian.

I think that fundamentally my position is that I'm concerned about requesting physicians to consider death as a treatment, as part of their routine practice. I think it's very dangerous for our profession. It puts patients at risk in general.

I'm quite concerned as a psychiatrist, seeing what's happened with adult legislation under the current regime. We were promised that the mentally ill were not going to be involved. It's going to be opening up to them. I'm concerned that this is going to be moving very quickly to my patient group, which is children and adolescents with mental illnesses. That's a very dangerous group to offer MAID to.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Senator. You have 20 seconds left, but that isn't enough to continue.

We have Senator Kutcher, please, for two minutes.

8:10 p.m.

Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG

Stanley Kutcher

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Marcoux, thank you very much for your personal testimony. As someone who has consulted to pediatric oncology wards, your story rings exceedingly true with me.

In a previous session, a witness who is a MAID provider told us that all of those who have chosen MAID have died a good death. You and your son considered MAID, but it was not available to him. Had it been available to him, do you think his death may have been better, as he would have been conscious until the moment he died, or do you think he would have preferred to stay in palliative sedation?

8:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Caroline Marcoux

I think he would have preferred to bring his death forward by a few days. Ultimately, it was a matter of days. He died two or three weeks after requesting palliative sedation. It was not very long after.

Medical assistance in dying would probably have meant he did not have to live the last few days, which were not easy for him. He had some very bad nights, he had nightmares, the pain was constant and he no longer had any quality of life. Even with the palliative sedation, he didn't seem well. He fidgeted constantly. When someone spoke to him, he reacted, in a way, as if he wanted to answer; he couldn't speak, but he mumbled. He didn't seem to be in a deep, calm sleep after receiving the palliative sedation. If he had had access to medical assistance in dying, he could have avoided those last few days, and especially the final day, which he spent under sedation.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Senator Kutcher.

Go ahead, Senator Dalphond.

8:10 p.m.

Senator, Quebec, PSG

Pierre Dalphond

My question is for you, Ms. Marcoux.

When your son Charles asked for palliative sedation, did the doctors refuse? Did they tell him he didn't have the capacity to consent and he had to have his parents' consent? Did they ask him whether he was sure that was really what he wanted?

8:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Caroline Marcoux

No, not at all. In fact, yes, under the protocol, they had to ask him to confirm that it was really what he wanted. The last few days, the doctor kept asking him the question. The final week, he asked him whether he was ready, if it was time for the sedation. The day when Charles said it was that day that he wanted the sedation, he was completely certain. That was the day he wanted to go to sleep.

Before giving the injections, the doctor asked him again to confirm that this was his decision, following the whole protocol.

8:10 p.m.

Senator, Quebec, PSG

Pierre Dalphond

So no one questioned his capacity.

8:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Caroline Marcoux

Absolutely not.

8:10 p.m.

Senator, Quebec, PSG

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Senator Dalphond.

We'll now go to Senator Wallin.

8:15 p.m.

Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG

Pamela Wallin

Thank you very much.

Dr. Ehmann, you have said that refusing life-saving treatment is fundamentally different from MAID, but both are designed to alleviate pain and hasten death, so the end result is the same. Why do you make the distinction?

8:15 p.m.

Medical Doctor, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, As an Individual

Dr. Timothy Ehmann

I make the distinction because the journey to get there is quite different. When a life-sustaining treatment is refused, the physicians are not actively participating in terms of the demise of the patient in a direct way. They are following patients' instructions—

8:15 p.m.

Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG

Pamela Wallin

That's what I'm asking about, because it seems to be about the position of the physician, not about the actual patient.

8:15 p.m.

Medical Doctor, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, As an Individual

Dr. Timothy Ehmann

Right. The role for us as physicians is, I believe the phrase is “to cure sometimes, to relieve often, to comfort always”. It's something along that line. Essentially the problem is that when the physician actually becomes part of the death process, particularly for non-dying patients, to whom we're starting to see MAID being offered, I have grave concerns about that. Even for someone close to death we have palliative care.

8:15 p.m.

Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG

Pamela Wallin

Do you think the doctor's views are actually more important than the patient's views? I guess that's what I'm asking.

8:15 p.m.

Medical Doctor, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, As an Individual

Dr. Timothy Ehmann

In my practice working with children and adolescents, I take into consideration everyone's views, and we're all working towards the best interests of the child and the adolescent.

8:15 p.m.

Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG

Pamela Wallin

I'm out of time here, but I take it you are opposed to MAID period, not just for youth or for those with mental illness.

8:15 p.m.

Medical Doctor, Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, As an Individual

Dr. Timothy Ehmann

As a physician, I'm opposed to MAID and to having our profession deliver this.

8:15 p.m.

Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG

Pamela Wallin

Thank you.