Evidence of meeting #8 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suffering.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joint Chair  Hon. Yonah Martin, Senator, British Columbia, C
Brian Mishara  Professor and Director, Centre for Research and Intervention on Suicide, Ethical Issues and End-of-Life Practices (CRISE), Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
Derryck Smith  Clinical Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
David E. Roberge  Member, End of Life Working Group, The Canadian Bar Association
Marie-Françoise Mégie  Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG
Stan Kutcher  Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG
Pamela Wallin  Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG
Sean Krausert  Executive Director, Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention
Valorie Masuda  Doctor, As an Individual
Joint Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Leif-Erik Aune
Kwame McKenzie  Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

On that, you have experienced the difficulty with applying for a section 56 exemption. There have been a lot of hoops to jump through. In some cases, the wait times have been long and onerous. You have the ability now to speak to a committee that is going to table a report and include recommendations.

From your point of view and from your experiences, what kinds of recommendations would you like to see this committee make with respect to access to psilocybin and further research? Can you elaborate on that point, please?

4:10 p.m.

Doctor, As an Individual

Dr. Valorie Masuda

Thank you.

The use of psychedelics in the States has now been termed “groundbreaking”. These are groundbreaking interventions.

It's not just about the medicine. It's about giving the medicine in the context of therapy. This is about using psychedelic-trained physicians and therapists. This is groundbreaking. This is a way where, for patients who are stuck in a certain thought pattern and behaviour pattern, we give them a psychedelic and it opens their brain, so that now we can establish new patterns of thought and behaviour. This is a groundbreaking type of intervention, and this is where I think we need to move forward in allowing it for patients with substance use disorders or chronic depression and anxiety.

Where we think there is no treatment, I believe there is a treatment, and we should look at allowing this to be accessible to all Canadians.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Quickly, for my final question, in the previous panel, when Dr. Smith was talking about the concept of irremediability, he said that it is a state when no more treatments are available that are acceptable both to the health care provider and to the patient. In your experience, when a patient decides that there are no other options for them that are acceptable, how do you try to move past that when your treatment options might be blocked by the patient's sense?

4:10 p.m.

Doctor, As an Individual

Dr. Valorie Masuda

It is a very tricky question, because certainly if I have a patient who has cancer, and he or she says that “treatment with chemotherapy doesn't align with my core values”, I have to respect that patient and say, “Even though you're on a dying trajectory, the decision not to use a medical intervention which can prevent dying is actually your right to make.” Mental health is really difficult, because—

4:10 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you. We're over five minutes already, and I wanted to just acknowledge that Dr. Kwame McKenzie has joined us, but his sound hasn't been tested.

Given that it's already almost 4:15, I'm wondering whether we should allow Dr. McKenzie to speak for a few minutes, since he has joined us. I see nodding heads.

Hopefully, Dr. McKenzie, your sound will work for us. You have just a few minutes for your testimony.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Chair, just one thing I wanted to say is that I also signed the letter for psilocybin to be a section 56 exemption. I'm just putting that out.

4:15 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Okay. Thank you.

Dr. McKenzie, go ahead.

If you can condense your remarks, because of time, that would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

4:15 p.m.

Dr. Kwame McKenzie Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Thank you very much. I hope you can hear me loud and clear. I apologize. This has been my most embarrassing Zoom call so far this year. I apologize for that, but we've managed to get on.

Thanks very much for allowing me to speak today. I'm honoured to be here.

As you know, I was the chair of the 2018 report by the CCA on MAID and mental disorders as a single underlying medical condition. I was also a member of The Halifax Group, which published a paper on MAID safeguards. Both the CCA report and the Halifax Group report wrestled with the same issues as Health Canada's 2022 expert panel on MAID and mental illness. Those main issues are the ones I've heard you talking about already: eligibility, capacity, suicidality, the intersection between MAID and the social determinants of health or structural vulnerability, and safeguards.

I know you've read the reports, and I'm happy to discuss those, but I thought I would use just a minute or two to draw attention to three things: the possible impacts of COVID-19, social determinants of health, and racial inequity on MAID for mental illness.

To explain the assessment of suffering in mental health problems, it is partly a link to the adequacy of treatment. Also, the social impact of the illness, the social exclusion and the feeling that you have a difficult future ahead of you increase the perception of suffering.

The suffering of people with mental health problems is likely to increase because of COVID-19. We had a crisis of increased rates of illness, increased rates of mental health problems and inadequate access to care and supports before COVID, and things have gotten worse because of COVID itself. That's because of the increased need for services, but also because of staff burnout and decreased capacity of services. We have a greater imbalance between service provision and need.

If the number of people who are not able to access appropriate treatment increases, we have increased numbers who are suffering. Therefore, if we have increased numbers of people suffering, we have to consider what that means for MAID and mental illness.

COVID-19 isn't the only stressor. We have the affordability crisis and curbs on government spending that will impact the suffering of people with mental health problems, because they're making unrealistic, comparative appraisals of where they are in their lives compared to others. As the social safety net comes under pressure and affordability becomes more of an issue, perceived suffering may increase.

Then, there's racial inequality. We all know that COVID-19 has hit indigenous, Black, and other racialized groups hard, but these groups were previously underserved by mental health services. Those disparities are likely to increase. They are also less likely to get the social supports they need. Again, we have a differential increase in suffering.

So far, none of the reports I talked about have properly discussed the differential impacts of MAID on different racial groups. I note that the Health Canada report does suggest that there needs to be consultation with indigenous populations in the implementation of the safeguards, but did not recommend that Black and other racialized groups should be specifically also consulted. I think that's an error.

I'm suggesting that we need to be thinking about an increased focus on how to ensure that every person who is considering MAID, where mental disorders are the single underlying medical condition, would have full access to appropriate and effective medical support. At the moment, we say they need to know about it, but the question is, do we ensure that they actually have full access?

Of course, it's clear that we need to build a system that doesn't only offer the medical support, but also makes sure that people with mental health problems are not socially excluded, living in poverty and believing that they have no future. We have to ensure that people accessing MAID have had proper access to social supports.

Last, we need to ensure that this group, our expert panels, and other groups that are thinking about MAID law have full and considered engagement with Black and other racialized groups so their needs are properly reflected in the transformational laws we're talking about.

All in all, my concern is that our safeguards should focus on ensuring that people have had proper equitable access to all of the treatments and social supports they need to decrease their suffering. This is to ensure that we're not creating an off-ramp for social suffering through MAID.

Thank you very much.

4:20 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you very much, Dr. McKenzie.

I'll turn this back to MP Garneau.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Senator Martin.

We'll now go to the senator round of questions. Once again, the first three senators will have four minutes each.

We will begin with Senator Mégie.

4:20 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG

Marie-Françoise Mégie

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. McKenzie.

In view of all the suffering resulting from COVID‑19, suffering that we are familiar with and that you just mentioned, I was wondering whether people who are socioeconomically disadvantaged, such as Indigenous, Black or racialized persons, had submitted MAID requests and whether you had any data on that.

4:20 p.m.

Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Kwame McKenzie

I'm a psychiatrist, and obviously MAID will essentially be unavailable to people with mental health problems until 2023, so I haven't been able to observe that myself.

4:20 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG

Marie-Françoise Mégie

Okay, thank you.

I have a question for Dr. Mesuda now.

In your opening remarks, you said that MAID is for people who are about to die. You must know however that this condition was overturned by Truchon and Gladu v. Attorney General of Canada. With regard to access to MAID, some experts have argued that excluding persons with mental disorders or mental illnesses is a violation of their fundamental rights.

What are your thoughts on that?

4:20 p.m.

Doctor, As an Individual

Dr. Valorie Masuda

I suppose we look at patients, or Canadians, and say that you have the right to make decisions about how you live and how you die. I don't have an issue with people accessing medical assistance in dying based on their own personal core values. What I do have an issue with is offering medical assistance in dying for people who are really depressed and stuck and who feel that their case is irremediable because of their social determinants of health.

If you are impoverished or if you are isolated, then you feel that there is no end to your suffering, so we need to ensure that all these people have access to food, housing and any treatments that could change the course of their illness.

4:20 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG

Marie-Françoise Mégie

I have just a few seconds left?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

You have one minute left.

4:20 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG

Marie-Françoise Mégie

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Krausert and Dr. Masuda. Please answer briefly.

You said that strong measures are needed and referred to multidisciplinary assessment. That is interesting, but I would like to know if one or two measures have emerged from your considerations and discussions with your peers..

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Why don't you start, Dr. Masuda?

4:25 p.m.

Doctor, As an Individual

Dr. Valorie Masuda

I have a number of cases where I feel that either family or even health care providers have been coercing a patient to contemplate MAID for a number of different reasons. This is also where I feel there would have to be safeguards. I've seen patients to whom it has been said, “Hey, I see you're suffering a lot here. Have you considered MAID?” It is not uncommon for a patient to experience a physician or a family member or somebody coming up and offering MAID as a really good solution to their problem.

This is where I think we really need multidisciplinary safeguards.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Doctor.

Dr. McKenzie, did you want to comment very quickly?

4:25 p.m.

Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Kwame McKenzie

Yes. I think the Health Canada recommendation of a multidisciplinary team taking assessments over time and getting collateral information is probably the best we can do with our science at the moment. Taking a considered case-by-case approach to this situation is done in various other parts of the world, and I think that's the best we can do at the moment.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Senator Kutcher.

Senator Kutcher, you have four minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG

Stan Kutcher

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Krausert.

You talked about MAID opening the door to suicide and the presence of MAID having the impact of legitimizing suicide. Have the rates of suicide in Canada before MAID changed significantly after MAID was instituted? If this was the case, we would expect to see significant increases in suicide rates. Have there been significant increases in suicide rates in Canada after MAID?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention

Sean Krausert

The access to MAID for mental disorder alone has not—

4:25 p.m.

Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG

Stan Kutcher

No, I'm not asking about that. You were not talking about mental disorders. You were talking about suicide in general because of MAID. I'm asking you a question on the rates of suicide.