Evidence of meeting #4 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was equality.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Christopher Lyon  Visiting Research Fellow, Centre for Death and Society, University of Bath, As an Individual
John Maher  Psychiatrist, Ontario Association for ACT & FACT
Pierre Dalphond  Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), ISG
Joint Chair  Hon. Yonah Martin (Senator, British Columbia, C)
Tony Loffreda  Senator, Quebec (Shawinigan), ISG
Pamela Wallin  Senator, Saskatchewan, CSG
Kristopher Wells  Senator, Alberta, PSG
Peters  Co-Founder, Disability Filibuster
Catherine Frazee  Professor Emerita, School of Disability Studies, Toronto Metropolitan University, As an Individual
Hewitt  Board Chair, Disability Without Poverty
Carr  Chief Executive Officer, Inclusion Canada
Kerri Froc  Associate Professor, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Daphne Gilbert  Full Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Elizabeth Sheehy  Professor Emerita of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Isabel Grant  University Killam Professor, Peter A. Allard School of Law, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

7:20 p.m.

Psychiatrist, Ontario Association for ACT & FACT

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

7:20 p.m.

Psychiatrist, Ontario Association for ACT & FACT

Dr. John Maher

I'd like to clarify. I didn't call anybody a murderer. I said homicides.

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

Kristopher Wells

That's not my question.

Right now, 80% of those polled agree with that statement. That's public opinion. That's actually on the record.

In your May 2022 testimony before this committee, you stated, “We have yet to find a case where treatment and recovery were not possible,” yet we've heard from multiple witnesses at this committee that we should treat persons with a mental illness similarly to how we treat persons with a disability. Understanding that, is it your professional opinion that all people with mental illnesses will get better?

7:20 p.m.

Psychiatrist, Ontario Association for ACT & FACT

Dr. John Maher

No. It's my understanding that all people with mental illness can have their suffering reduced—

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

7:20 p.m.

Psychiatrist, Ontario Association for ACT & FACT

Dr. John Maher

—and can be supported to the point where they're no longer suicidal.

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

Kristopher Wells

My time is limited, unfortunately.

The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski

I think you posed a very lengthy question. I would give the witness a brief opportunity to reply to the question.

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

Kristopher Wells

It was a yes-or-no question, Chair. Are you going to—

The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski

We are not going there.

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

Kristopher Wells

I have a point of order.

The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski

Dr. Maher, you have 10 seconds or so to answer the question.

7:20 p.m.

Psychiatrist, Ontario Association for ACT & FACT

Dr. John Maher

Thank you. I'll just repeat my answer. Suffering can be reduced, and people can receive treatment that can reduce their suicidal thinking, goals and plan. They can find meaning and purpose with support, and, yes, that's true of 100% of people.

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

Kristopher Wells

Can I continue?

The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski

Yes.

Kristopher Wells

Thank you.

Dr. Lyon, my question is this: Have you ever personally assessed a person for MAID?

7:25 p.m.

Visiting Research Fellow, Centre for Death and Society, University of Bath, As an Individual

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

Kristopher Wells

What you're sharing is your personal position, which seems to emphasize protecting vulnerable individuals. How would you respond to concerns that denying access to MAID for competent adults is inherently paternalistic and undermines their autonomy and dignity?

7:25 p.m.

Visiting Research Fellow, Centre for Death and Society, University of Bath, As an Individual

Dr. Christopher Lyon

I've never made that argument here.

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Alberta, PSG

Kristopher Wells

I'm asking how you would respond to those concerns that we've heard before this committee.

7:25 p.m.

Visiting Research Fellow, Centre for Death and Society, University of Bath, As an Individual

Dr. Christopher Lyon

MAID came about through Carter, so it's a constitutional decriminalization, basically. Then we had this lower court ruling in Quebec. Within those parameters set out in the legislation, provided those are met, there's not much room for argument on that.

I have a personal opinion on what I think is happening, if that's what you're asking me for.

The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski

Thank you. I'm sorry, but we don't have time for that personal opinion.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for three minutes.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Maher, just to follow up, you indicated that a 35-year-old patient who had severe mental illness was offered MAID by a family physician proactively. What happened to that patient?

7:25 p.m.

Psychiatrist, Ontario Association for ACT & FACT

Dr. John Maher

She died of an unexpected medical condition before the MAID date.