National Defence Committee on Oct. 4th, 2006

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

What I mean is that as Commander of Canadian Operational Support Command, how many people do you have directly under you?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

Almost 2,000 military personnel report directly to my command. Most of them are called on to go into theatre on very short notice. The major challenge for them is getting into theatre to provide their assistance and expertise, and then coming back after three, four, five or six weeks.

It's what we call “in and out”. These people are constantly going back and forth. They travel a great deal. They take their support-related expertise to theatre, to help the people on the ground to properly structure the operations. So, the major challenge is the pace these people have to keep up.

At the present time, we have adequate staff. On the other hand, if we had to open up a second line of operation, current staff levels would be inadequate. That's why we have to resolve the problem of operational support personnel possessing the necessary expertise.

However, that does not mean that I have to have at my disposal all the weapons and all the necessary operational support personnel. First and foremost, I need people with the appropriate expertise, and then I can ask the army, the air force and the navy to provide me with support and beef up my team, so that we can carry out our work in theatre. That is the relationship that I maintain with those three environments and that allows me to carry out my missions.

In the current context, it is difficult to bring in support personnel currently based in garrisons such as the one in Bagotville, Montreal or Valcartier. Support has been cut back so much in recent years that these people have to wear two or three hats. If I take significant numbers of them away, we may end up creating a critical situation as regards operations on a base such as Bagotville, or elsewhere.

If we want to get these people into theatre, we have to find a way to cover during their absence. I am trying to look at this to see who can be freed up. If they are wearing a uniform, as much as possible, it should be to support operations where required.

How can we support our base and squadron commanders in their day-to-day work? Very often, that work can be carried out by a civilian contractor for the six months or the year during which military staff is away working in theatre. That is the dynamic we are currently living with in terms of our staff and the existing arrangement for the Canadian Forces as a whole.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

My second question has to do with the possibility that the Afghanistan mission will be extended past 2009. I've heard a lot of comments--you may have heard them as well--suggesting that the mission could last between five and ten years.

My question is twofold. First of all, what timeframe does your current work cover? Are you working on things that will take place a year from now? Does your mission support planning go beyond 2009?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

As regards Afghanistan, I work on the basis of what is needed today and what the Commander of the Expeditionary Forces asks me to provide. So, I am providing support to him on a day-to-day basis. The people who are in theatre are carrying out an operational campaign. In order to get the equipment to them quickly, I ask the expeditionary forces to give me an accurate assessment of the ammunition, rations or any other supplies they may require to carry out their campaign for the next week, two weeks or three weeks, a month, and so on. My minimum deadline is therefore three days, which is the time needed to get the equipment over there quickly.

However, from a strategic perspective, working with the Chief of the Defence Staff, I'm looking at what is happening not only in Afghanistan, but across the globe. What's going to happen in the next two, five, ten, fifteen or twenty years? Are we equipped to deal appropriately with a possible crisis? We propose certain options to the Government to ensure that we can meet its expectations.

So, we plan on a global scale, and my role is to facilitate forces deployment across the globe. For example, if a mission is being carried out in Africa, I have to ascertain what the best way of getting in there is. Getting into a country requires a great deal of time and effort. Memoranda of understanding have to be signed with the various countries concerned, and securing the necessary clearances may take several months.

In terms of support, I have to be ahead of the ball; I have to be proactive. If there were to be a mission in Africa, in the Caribbean, in Haiti, in the Pacific region or somewhere else, how would we get in there? I determine what the best points of entry are to countries across the globe where we have to deploy our forces, either by sea or by air.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Ms. Gallant, then Mr. Cannis.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Canadians will recall the crisis under the former Liberal government with GTS Katie, a ship that was hired by a private company to bring Canadian tanks, weapons, and other supplies back from Kosovo. At the time it was about 10% of Canada's total military inventory. What assurances can you give us that a similar occurrence will not occur in shipping Canadian equipment now?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

Obviously, my command was not created when this thing happened, so I'm not privy to any of those details. But I know individuals who were very much involved on the movement side and the process, and they have captured lessons learned, they have told me, and we are making sure this does not happen a second time. This is why we have many different means to bring our equipment overseas. I have discussed already the contractual arrangements through Antonov, the ILOC of the U.S., and we also have a NATO air bridge. We have an agreement with the Coalition of the Willing in Europe, called SALIS, which is bringing us other assets, and the same thing on the sea side.

We're optimizing the worldwide strategic lift capabilities, if you wish, to make sure we don't end up in the situation we were in with GTS Katie.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

To what extent are civilian defence employees deployed to Afghanistan as part of the Canadian military supply chain?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

Right now, there are CANCAP individuals who are augmenting the supply detachment in Afghanistan, so de facto those CANCAP employees who are civilians are working side by side with us to support the operation on the Kandahar airfield, which is mostly secure there. So we have civilians there, and we are taking care of them as if they were military.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How about civilian Department of National Defence employees?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

We have both. We have CANCAP, our contractor. We have CFPSA, which is an agency of National Defence, but still an agency. We have public servants who go on visits here and there, for studies on part of the lessons learned. For example, DRDC have people there. So we are supporting all four different entities in the theatre.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

During the previous missions, such as the one in Bosnia, the former government had been phasing out the use of civilian defence employees in theatre, opting more for private contractors. Are we finding that's the case in Afghanistan, or are we staying more with civilian defence employees and these CANCAP people?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

In terms of shaping the future, that is something I'm looking at, because we have great public servants on our bases and wings that I know personally are very willing to contribute and go in a theatre, as long as we can guarantee the proper security there. I think we should allow that to happen, because this would reinforce the support capabilities of the Canadian Forces and all departments as a whole, not only being military from the regular military or from reservists, but capitalizing on our public servants as another capability we could bring in theatre when the theatre is mature enough. If the theatre is mature enough for a CANCAP or a CFPSA agent, then my recommendation is that it's also mature enough for a public servant. I will be working very closely with our associate deputy minister of civilian resources to see if this can happen and how we can best support and protect those people in a theatre and all of the aspects that this entails.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Where, if at all, on your org chart on page three does a regiment or a 2 Service Battalion, for example, fit in?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

When you look at the overall construct, they are not part of my.... The 2 Service Battalion on slide three are part of the army, so that would be under the Chief of the Land Staff. It's in the middle. There is a purple box with CLS, CAS, CMP, and CMS, so the commander of the army is Chief of Land Staff, CLS. The CLS is a big organization, the army, land force command, which has many units, including 2 Service Battalion. An entity like the 2 Service Battalion is what we call a close support type of unit, and this is to the army.

In my job, I don't do garrison support. I'm not involved on how we support our bases and wings throughout Canada. I don't touch that. I don't touch the integral support that is part of a unit. Let's say the RCD or the RCR have a squadron that works with them and supports them; I don't deal with that. I don't deal with 2 Service Battalion or any of those battalions that provide close support to an army capability. However, when you're at the theatre, like in Kandahar, we must be able to connect with them and make sure they understand where they're going to get their water and so on, so it's more of a connecting role. The theatre level connecting to these entities is fundamental. They don't work for me, but I will be connecting with them when they deploy in operations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thanks.

Mr. Cannis, and then we'll go back over to the government.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

General Benjamin, I'm just going to pick up from when I asked the first question in terms of your responsibility to project a force. You've explained that very well. To continue on, as you plan and project the needed force, as you described it, can you please go back for me to, I believe, 1995, when the changes were occurring? Do you recall specifically that in the 1995 budget, well over $13 billion was allocated for your new equipment, under the Liberal government? Of course, you knew the equipment, but we didn't know what your needs were. Given that some of this equipment takes time, can you please explain to me or elaborate?

Because you have to go out and contract certain equipment that we don't have today—the 2005 budget, I apologize—what equipment did you identify then that is forthcoming, and what equipment do you need today that is on order, is to be ordered, or is in the process of being ordered? What are we anticipating for today's theatre and for whatever might happen in the future?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

Procurement of equipment is truly a strategic-level issue. Obviously, my command just started on January 1, so I was not privy to any of those discussions. Right now, what I can do is say what the lessons learned from the operation in Afghanistan are, and with those comes the operational requirement from a support perspective. We can then pass on this support requirement to those who do the procurement and those who are involved in establishing the defence capabilities plan and what is going to be procured as part of those capabilities. I can have an influence in this, but I cannot really answer your question on what we did two years back or—

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

What are we lacking today in that specific theatre in terms of equipment? Are you aware of what equipment we're lacking today?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

We've discussed some of the key pieces, and from a support perspective I said that strategic lift is fundamental. The medium- to heavy-lift helicopter is also fundamental from a support perspective.

In terms of combat capabilities, you'll have to ask either the commander of Expeditionary Forces Command—it's his theatre, and I'm not aware of what he sees there—and all of the army, navy, and air force capabilities with that.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

So from what knowledge you do have, have we moved the file or the envelope forward, closer to securing that procurement for the military—strategic airlift, helicopters, as you just pointed out? Has that file moved forward? If you are aware, how forward is it?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

The procurement of the five big-ticket items, from a support perspective, is fundamental, and they are moving really fast. And faster is better from my perspective, because it will be much easier to do my job.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We'll go back over to Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, General, for being here today. It's quite interesting.

I have a whole list of questions that have already been asked, so I've had to make some up on the fly. If they seem disjointed, it's only to follow up on conversations and bits of information that you've already given us.

When it comes to your command, you said you had about 2,000 people in that command structure. I'm just wondering what issues you're facing currently, today, as far as staffing is concerned? Are you losing highly trained staff because the job market in various parts of the country is very hot right now? I'm not sure what the skill sets are that you would have. Obviously there's logistics, with a lot of paper shuffling, I would imagine. I'm just wondering how your command structure has adjusted from a staffing perspective and a recruitment retention perspective. How are you going to fit in with the whole growth of the armed forces in the future?