National Defence Committee on Oct. 4th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We have quorum and we have our witnesses, so we'll call to order the 14th meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence. We'll continue our study on the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan.

We have a couple of agenda items today, ladies and gentlemen. We have witnesses to hear and then we have committee business. We have a notice of motion from Mr. Bachand, and then we have planning for future business to deal with. We also have bells at 5:30, for a vote at a quarter to. If we could deal with our witnesses and terminate that at a quarter after, we should be able to deal with our committee business before 5:30, when the bells will ring.

I'd like to welcome to the committee today Major-General Daniel Benjamin, commander of Canadian Operational Support Command, and Colonel Jocelyn Cousineau.

Gentlemen, welcome. You've given us the presentation that I understand you're going to be using. We'll turn the meeting over to you for that presentation, and then we'll go into questions. But you're probably familiar with how the committee works.

Major-General Benjamin.

[MGen Daniel Benjamin, Commander, Canadian Operational Support Command, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much and good afternoon to one and all, and particularly members of the Committee.

I am Commander of the Canadian Operational Support Command. With me today is Colonel Cousineau, who is my Chief of Plans.

Canadian Operational Support Command is a new command. It started in January, so we are only eight months old. We're kind of new, then, and not yet fully mature, but we are obviously going through this process.

I'd like to offer you a briefing deck, which I've provided in both English and French, so that you can go through the different slides with me. I have some pictures in there that really depict what my command is all about. Because it is such a new command, it's quite a change in the way we do business in the Canadian Forces in regard to supporting operations throughout the world.

I would like to take you through the slides. Please turn to the second slide.

This slide outlines the different aspects I'd like to cover with you--the command and control structure, the mission and the roles, the concept of operations, and what my organization is all about.

In slide three, you get a full view of the Canadian Forces as they are right now. It's a very cumbersome diagram, but I'd like you to focus right in the middle. Where you see purple boxes, all these boxes are new as of January 31 or February 1. They are the operational-level commands that the Chief of the Defence Staff has established.

I'm on the right-hand side, as commander of CANOSCOM. As you can see from this diagram, I do report directly to the Chief of the Defence Staff. However, you should all realize that my real job is to support the other three commands that are on the same line--the Special Operations Forces Command; Expeditionary Force Command, which is very related to Afghanistan; and Canada Command, which is very much on the domestic and continental front.

With this diagram I'd also like to highlight the fact that I'm linked to the associate deputy ministers, who all have functional responsibilities from a governmental perspective. I make sure those functional responsibilities are also well taken care of in operations. We establish a technical net, if you wish, and then I make sure that these aspects--infrastructure, environment, security, and so on--are followed as best we can in operations.

So, there is a connection with Assistant Deputy Ministers. That is a fundamental part of this Command.

Moving to slide four, you can see our mission. It is to provide effective and efficient operational support to Canadian Forces operations, be they domestic, continental, or expeditionary. What you should take from this is that I give de facto support to operations everywhere in the world, to all of them.

I do have primary roles, and the next slide can show you graphically what those roles are all about. But those roles, as such, bring me into shaping the development of new capabilities in terms of support, generating support entities to go and activate the theatre of operations, and obviously helping in the planning and sustaining of our operations throughout the world.

So I'm in all aspects of force development, force generation, and force employment--all aspects.

I would now like to draw your attention to the next slide, which provides a graph detailing the operations of this Command.

I think that's the most important slide. We will probably refer to it during the question period.

Let's assume the government is asking us to do an operation overseas or in Canada. We have to establish a theatre of operation, so we have to project a force. I help to project that force through movement control, so we can look at what we have in the Canadian Forces in terms of maritime ships, airplanes, strategic lift, and if that--

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

These are blank pages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

From the report that was tabled?

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Have we used them all?

Is it just yours that's blank, Joe?

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I don't know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Can we get another copy or two of these in English? They have some blank ones there.

Let's just hold on and we'll get this sorted out here.

Does anybody else have blank pages?

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I'll just follow along.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

While we get one for Mr. McGuire, we'll get you to go ahead. He can follow along.

Thank you.

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

If we don't have enough military aircraft or ships to project our own force, then I can go through contracts and coordinate the whole movement of the force that has to be projected overseas.

When we go in theatre, the key is to activate that theatre. We call this a “theatre activation”.

Imagine it's a city. Most often that location has been quite devastated, either by war or a disaster. We go in, and we have to make sure that our soldiers have a roof; that they have water and electricity; that they have their stores, through their warehouse; that they have a medical facility; that they have the proper policing, security, and detention facilities; that they have the maintenance bay--the garage, if you wish; that they have the communications network in theatre and back to Canada; and that they have personal services, like a gym, a Tim Hortons, and things to that effect.

When we go in we try to establish this to make sure our soldiers are going to be well taken care of. That's what we call theatre activation, and my people are quite involved with it.

Then the forces come in with a national support element. They go rotation by rotation, and they can stay in that theatre for as long as we wish. I don't get involved after that, except just to monitor.

When they do that, I'm involved in terms of the pipeline, if you wish, between Canada and the theatre. The theatre can be in Canada, but in this case we're looking at Afghanistan. So how do we do the sustainment from Canada? What is that pipeline? What is this lifeline of equipment, materiel, personnel, repatriation of remains, repatriation of casualties, and so on? It's a flow back and forth between Canada and the theatre. It's very much a national issue, and I'm responsible for making sure this pipeline works well for all of those different resources.

If the government decides afterwards to close a theatre, then I send my expert back to that theatre and we do the drawdown and closure of that theatre, and make sure that proper remediation is done.

So grosso modo, this is where I'm very much involved with operations. If you look at Afghanistan right now, the theatre is well established, so I'm not involved in sustaining, supporting people in the theatre, but I'm very much involved with the lifeline between Canada and that theatre, supporting Lieutenant-General Gauthier, commander of the Canadian Expeditionary Force Command, in making sure that things go well and we're well connected.

Slide No. 8

shows you the overall Canadian Forces support construct, which has changed. We used to have units and formations, embedded with the associate deputy minister role, that were providing support. With the new construct, those formations and units have come mostly under my command, so we now have a military commander who makes sure that the service delivery, the way we support our own forces, is under only one umbrella and that it provides all the different support functions that we see in a theatre of operation. This frees up the associate deputy ministers to really focus on strategic guidance, procurement, and all of the strategic issues that they have in their realm of responsibilities.

You see at the bottom of the diagram that we provide support not only to forces like those in Afghanistan--the Expeditionary Forces Command--but also to forces in Canada Command, or to the Special Forces Command, which sometimes has specific missions directly for the Chief of Defence Staff. That gives you the overall construct.

On slide number seven, we see the capability thrust on the top, which we have just discussed. What is key for you are the functions at the bottom. You can see the types of functions that really report to me, and which I take care of at the theatre level, reaching back to Canada. We're looking at the engineers, for vertical and horizontal construction. We're looking at the logistics, the distribution system, the warehousing, and so on. We're looking at maintenance, especially to bring back the damaged vehicles and bring forward the replacements. We're looking at health services, primarily at the high level--we call it row three, for example, in Afghanistan, which is an advanced surgical centre--and things to that effect.

We're looking at communications, and very much at the strategic link between the theatre and Canada, which is based very much on satellite communications. We're looking at contactors. We have a contract called CANCAP, which reinforces our people and the theatre to do that. We're looking at personnel support, like the Tim Hortons we have over there, the gym facilities, and so on. These are the types of functions. At the far end we have the military police, so we're looking at detention. In the case of Afghanistan, we call it a process facility, which we are making sure works well. These are the types of functions for which we set up the theatre, and which we then monitor and sustain from here in Canada.

In the last slide, you see the organization. It's not only the headquarters here in Ottawa; it's also a command that has units and formations. From the left to the right at the bottom, you see that my primary formation is the joint support group, and this group is in Kingston. Under this group we have so-called purple units, those units that have army-navy-air force functions within them. Those units are, for example, the 1 Engineer Support Unit , which is in Moncton. We have the 4 CF MCU movement unit in Montreal; the 3 Canadian Support Group--3 CSG--also in Montreal. These are all logistics units. And we have the Canadian Forces Postal Unit that is in Trenton. All these units are really purple and support operations from here.

The second box is called the Joint Signals Regiment. It also focuses on joint responsibility--so purple responsibility--focusing on the communication network between the theatre and Canada. That unit is in Kingston. The third one is the Canadian Materiel Support Group. This group has all of the ammunition depots and supply depots we have here in Canada. That allows me to have the end-to-end process of the supply chain from here to the theatre, which is a great enabler.

The next box after that is the health services. They have been centralized from a Canadian Forces perspective, and they are under my operational control for supporting operations everywhere in the world. The next box is the communication reserve, which is a reserve entity that reinforces the Joint Signal Regiment from Kingston in establishing the proper communication network. Then we have people who are responsible to me, especially the Canadian Forces provost marshal, who makes sure all of the functions, including the military police, are part of this organization.

This gives you a quick look at this command and at what we are all about. It is a new organization. We are still maturing, as I said. We are trying to be a learning organization, and we're getting great insights from the current mission in Afghanistan and trying to evolve from there as a learning organization.

I have a limited focus at this time. It is supporting the theatre, sustaining that theatre, and reaching back here to Canada.

At this point I am ready to answer your questions with regard to my area of responsibility, while remaining in the non-classified domain.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

We'll start our round of questions with the official opposition. Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm going to ask one or two questions, then maybe others can.

The uppermost issue in my mind is Afghanistan; you're deeply involved supporting our troops there. The question is about the Leopard tanks. I understand from the reports that the Leopard tank was in the process of being phased out over the last few years. I'd like to know the status of our force's capability to repair and maintain the Leopards in Afghanistan, since they were being phased out.

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

The Leopard tanks, as well as all the support for them, were being consolidated mostly in the Wainwright and Moncton areas. The theatre has asked to have those tanks for force protection. The commander of CEFCOM will come in later this month, and maybe he can describe what they're going to be doing with them.

I'm being asked to send them, and that's what we are doing right now, with the full maintenance and support package that goes with them. We're making sure this package works. It is in working condition.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The very specific question is are you confident we have the capability to both maintain and repair in the field, since these tanks were being phased out? I'm assuming, since they were being phased out, people weren't being trained in their maintenance or upkeep. I could be wrong in that assumption. If I am wrong, I'd like to be told. If I am correct in my assumption, do we have the repair and maintenance capacity on the field both in terms of however many tanks have been dispatched, and the number of tanks that are going to be added?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

The commander of the army will be better placed to answer the question on what he's been doing with the tanks in the last few years. As I said, they were consolidated in the Wainwright and Moncton areas and were being used in many army experiments there. They were still working. At this early stage, I would say the capability is there. It will depend on how they are used and what happens in the theatre. We'll see how that goes and we'll monitor the stocks to make sure they are properly sustained, from the Canadian perspective. Initially I would say we're on safe ground.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Cannis, you've got just about four minutes.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

General Benjamin, I have two questions.

You mentioned part of your responsibility is to project a force, if I may quote you. Can you elaborate a little on that and how you go about projecting this force and the requirements needed, as it applies to Afghanistan?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

We have a very good example right now where the government is asking that we send reinforcements into Afghanistan. The tanks are a good example, and we have many other capabilities as part of this package. So these are our new capabilities being projected into the theatre.

We're handling it by looking at what our lift capabilities are here in Canada. We have very few of them at the moment--primarily the Airbus, which you cannot put a tank in, and the CC-130 Hercules, which again you cannot put a tank in. So we're quite limited in terms of strategic lifts right now. I'm very anxious to see a strategic lift so we have more freedom of action and more autonomy from a Canadian perspective.

I have to look at other means to bring the equipment into the theatre. I don't decide on the flow. I'm told we'd like to have those pieces of equipment in theatre for such and such a date, and I try to find the best means to do that. In this instance we are using an An-124 through a contract agency, which can bring two tanks out of Canada. We have an air bridge using C-17s from the U.S.

We have a partnership with the U.S. called the integrated line of communication. We work together and they bring those tanks into Kandahar. So you can see that we are using many different possibilities to bring heavy equipment into the theatre. That's the first wave, and there are other waves coming in.

We're looking at sealift, because sealift is very often much more efficient. So it's a combination of airlift and sealift. We're trying to find the best flow to bring in this equipment and meet the operational requirements of the commander of the Expeditionary Force Command.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That leads to the second part of my question, which you partially answered. If we don't have the equipment--and you gave specific examples of cooperation with our U.S. partners--you're saying we lease equipment for a month or two.

Looking at some of this heavy airlift equipment, we know realistically that Afghanistan is before us. But from your perspective, what if we buy ten heavy airlifts and we don't have these types of missions for the next ten or fifteen years? What will those airlifts be used for? Will they be in Trenton, where we'll have to maintain them, etc.? Or is it more feasible to say that as theatres unfold--hopefully these types of Afghanistan theatres do not unfold--will the means be there if we need a ship or some heavy airlifts? What is the best way to spend our money? I think you know what I'm driving at.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

You have a really short time for a response.

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

I wouldn't be concerned about where we are heading. The world isn't getting prettier out there. But let's say we don't have any missions because the government doesn't want us to be outside the country. Even in the Canada-first context and supporting our own troops here in Canada--even supporting Alert, for example, is a nightmare for me right now--those strategic lifts would be fundamental. It's a huge country, so they would be used extensively whatever the scenario.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I had the opportunity to go to Alert from Trenton on a resupply mission a couple of years ago. Boy, those are brave souls who get on the planes every week to make that trip. I'll just say that.

Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to welcome you to the Committee, particularly you, General Benjamin. We are always proud to see that a guy from Saint-Jean has managed to reach the highest levels of the military command structure. Mr. Benjamin is one of my constituents. I hope he won his own elections in the last 13 years.

I just have a couple of questions for you. It is my impression that you are a services group. I see this as representing a client-salesman relationship, in that you are serving the people over there.

Who do you receive your orders from? For example, who decides when kleenex, weapons or ammunition are required? Is it Gen Fraser who calls you? Is it Gen Gauthier? Does Fraser call Gauthier, who then calls you to tell you they need this or that? How does the decision-making process work?

[MGen Daniel Benjamin]

When we begin a new mission, orders come directly from the strategic level--in other words, from the Chief of Defence, through strategic staff, who send us the guidelines. If it is an expeditionary mission, such as in Afghanistan, the responsibility is given to the Commander of the Expeditionary Forces, which would be Gen Gauthier.

As far as I'm concerned, my task is to develop the operational support Gen Gauthier requires. That is what our activities revolve around, such as setting up the theatre of operations. Once they are in theatre, it is really Gen Gauthier's theatre. They are the ones who check the levels of materiel that's available, and so on. When they see that materiel levels are beginning to drop, they tell me what they're missing and what the priority is. I have to ensure that is delivered to the theatre of operations. That is where I use my lifeline, my pipeline, airlift, and so on, to provide all the equipment they need in the appropriate timeframe.