National Defence Committee on Dec. 11th, 2006

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

If we have followed up ourselves, how often has that been done? In what condition did we find those prisoners we had transferred? Were they held under appropriate conditions?

[Vincent Rigby]

Up to this point, sir, visits to Afghan detention centres have been on an irregular basis. I cannot give you a specific number at this point as to how many times Canadian Forces personnel have visited detention facilities in Kandahar, for example, but there have been visits, and we are looking I think towards the future and perhaps having more regular visits to detention facilities. This is something we plan to talk to the Afghan authorities about.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Has there been anything in your experience or from what you know that might lead you to the conclusion that we need to review and improve the arrangement that is in place?

[Vincent Rigby]

At this point, we believe the arrangement has worked extremely well. We're very comfortable with the way the arrangement has been drafted. We're very comfortable with the role of the International Committee of the Red Cross, with the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, and with our access to prisons as required. We've had absolutely no information passed to us directly by the ICRC or the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission or Afghan authorities themselves as to mistreatment of detainees passed on to Afghan authorities by Canadian Forces.

That said, we're always dealing with our ICRC colleagues and with our colleagues in the Afghan national security forces. Certainly we will be looking at ways on the detention side, for example, and on the correctional services side--and Ms. Swords referred to this--to improve capacity building in the areas of security sector reform and justice and so on and so forth.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Russ Hiebert]

Thank you, Mr. Dosanjh.

Since we recognize that we will not have enough time for a second round of questions, I propose to the committee that we extend this first round to eight minutes or shortly after eight minutes. You can share it among yourselves as you wish.

Ms. Bourgeois, you're next.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

My first question is for Ms. Colleen Swords. Why are these prisoners in prison? Apart from the fact that they are terrorists, what have they done? It is all fine and well to say that they are terrorists, but I would like to have some more clarifications.

[Colleen Swords]

That's a question, in a way, that's best directed to the military on the ground, but because the nature of our operation in Afghanistan is multi-faceted, some of those who would be picked up may indeed be insurgents. Some of them might actually be those who've engaged in some criminal activity. That's why the sense is that it's best to turn them over to the Afghan authorities for them to determine how best to handle the justice system, starting from any charges and right through to detention.

It's a variety, because the nature of the mission in Afghanistan is quite a mixed mission. It's all about stabilization of the Afghan government; they don't fall into one category or the other.

Would the Department of National Defence want to add to that from the field perspective?

[Vincent Rigby]

Perhaps all I could add is that we don't usually refer to them as prisoners. We like to use the term “detainees” specifically for what they are. When we first capture an individual--when we first take a detainee under our wings--we do an assessment of whether they should be passed on to the Afghan national security forces or released. If it's clear in our minds that they are insurgents and have been conducting insurgent operations in Afghanistan and against alliance forces, then we will pass them on to Afghan national security forces. That's generally the idea.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I feel it is important for you to tell us what type of individuals these people are, whether they be insurgents, criminals or prisoners, as written in the document.

We know that the Afghan government is currently weak. I have here a study by Houchang Hassan-Yari, Professor and Director of the Department of Political Science and Economics at the Royal Military College of Canada. He says that the Afghan government is very weak, that the police, in particular, face rampant corruption and that the government must find a solution to the problem of poppy crops.

It is important for you to tell us who you have incarcerated. If the government is corrupt, if it is weak and if you hand over these insurgents or criminals to the government, what guarantees do we have that these people will remain in detention and will not turn against the people in the field? That is the first component.

Secondly, there are the warlords. All recent studies indicate not only that the Taliban are gaining ground, but also that the warlords, who we, as Canadians, have put in place, often violate human rights in Afghanistan and contribute to propagating the problems there.

Drafting regulations or concluding arrangements is good, but I question the safety and the security that such arrangements will provide.

Thirdly, in the Arrangement for the Transfer of Detainees signed by the Canadian Forces and the Defence Department of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, it says, in point 8, that:

The Detaining Power will be responsible for classification of detainees' legal status under international law.

That goes back to what I was saying earlier. Let's say that a person is detained for opium trafficking in a corrupt government. Are you confident that will bring about much security? Will that prevent the government from releasing the person? How can we be sure that such a weak and corrupt government will pursue your action? I am sure that your action is excellent, but how can we ensure that it will be pursued?

[Colleen Swords]

In a way, there are three questions. In another way, they're all the same question, which is basically, yes, the government in Afghanistan needs a lot of help. There are tremendous challenges there on all fronts--if that weren't the case, we wouldn't be there--but those challenges are on so many fronts that you have to start somewhere, and they're on so many fronts that an agreement alone is not enough. That's why we have, on the part of the Canadian government, identified correctional reform as an area into which we want to put some resources to assist them in their correctional facilities.

In addition, the European Union has a very large police training program, and UNAMA has focused on justice sector reform.

Has it happened yesterday? No. Has it happened today? No. Will it happen in ten years? Well, only if we start now. The concern is that if you just say they can't do it and we've got to do it all ourselves, we will never build indigenous capacity for the Afghan people to do it themselves. The only way to do that and to build it is to work with them now on specific projects, with specific training that deals with the justice sector and with correctional facilities. We don't know any better way to do it than working with them, starting right now.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Again, according to Mr. Houchang Hassan-Yari, who is very familiar with Afghanistan since he works here for the Canadian Forces, allegiance in Afghanistan is first and often only to the tribal leader. The central government is a foreign and distant body, and the national sense of belonging is weak.

How can a Canadian Forces service like yours or a correctional service help the Afghan people have confidence in a central government, when that is not part of Afghan traditions? The Afghan people have never experienced that, they are not familiar with that. You seem to be going against the flow and to want to get them to believe in a strong central government that is legally responsible and in a correctional service that should provide them with some security. I do not understand.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Russ Hiebert]

You've got about thirty seconds.

[Colleen Swords]

I think you've identified another of the challenges in Afghanistan: the relationship between the central government and the provincial governments.

Having said that, I can tell you it is different, depending on which province you're in. Some of the provinces have much more robust justice systems than others, so it does vary. The correctional services are provincial, and they vary considerably from one province to another.

Training is another challenge. Very often countries that are doing training try to do it at the central level. Well, it doesn't always spill down. We've discovered that in Kandahar we actually have to get out and do some of our own training with respect to police training and the correctional services, because although some of it has been done by UNAMA, it's been done in Kabul, and we need to do more of it out in the provinces.

You've identified one of the problems, but it's a problem we are working on.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Russ Hiebert]

Thank you.

Ms. Black is next.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for coming again. It's a pleasure to have you here and to get some information.

The department has said many times that nothing in this arrangement prevents Canadians from requesting a visit to the detainees to do any follow-up. You seemed to indicate we have been doing that. That's in contradiction to the information I had in reply to a written question to the minister, who told me on September 18 that Canada had not yet requested to visit any detainees.

If you're in agreement with the minister, it would mean we've only started to ask after the end of September.

How many prisoners have we followed up on, and what was the state of their incarceration?

[Vincent Rigby]

I can perhaps ask Colonel Herfst if he has the details on that answer, but my understanding is that these have been informal ad hoc visits that did not necessarily entail a formal request to Afghan authorities to make an appearance at the detention centres, so I don't believe there's a contradiction between me and the minister. It may be more just a matter of process and how we put it through the system.

I'll pass to you, Colonel.

[Col G. Herfst, Deputy Judge Advocate General Operations, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Rigby is correct in that it is done at the local level. It's done by those people in Kandahar who on a fairly regular basis have needed to go downtown and have contact with the Afghan authorities for particular reasons. I'm thinking, for example, of members of the military police, who, as Madam Swords has indicated, are working towards mentoring and helping the local police to increase their capacity. It's in that vein that we have that kind of contact.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Let's just say that to the minister's side, I can read to you that the Canadian government has not yet requested to visit transferred detainees--

[Col G. Herfst]

That is correct.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

—and that was September 18.

That takes me to my next question, though, because you mentioned the military police. How are the military police involved with the detainees? Is it the military police who process them on to the Afghans? Second, are the actions of the Canadian military police in Afghanistan in any way different in Afghanistan from what they are in any other theatre of operation that Canada is involved in?

[Col G. Herfst]

The answer to the second part is very easy. We train to one standard and we apply that one standard. It is in conformity with all our obligations under international law.

Yes, it is the military police who have the primary responsibility both to advise on and to implement local arrangements for the processing and transferring of detainees. They advise the commander on the ground in respect of detainee transfers.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Am I correct in understanding that it is Canadian military police who transfer detainees over to the Afghan authorities?

[Col G. Herfst]

It is if we are dealing with a transfer that takes place not necessarily at the place the individual was captured, because from time to time an individual may be transferred almost directly, depending on who is present at that point.

[Vincent Rigby]

There are effectively two options. You can transfer a detainee in the field at the place of capture or you can take the detainee back to the detention facility at Kandahar.