Evidence of meeting #38 for National Defence in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requirements.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

D. Robertson  Chief of the Maritime Staff, Department of National Defence
Terry Williston  Director General, Land, Aerospace and Marine Systems and Major Projects Sector, Public Works and Government Services Canada
R.W. Greenwood  Director General, Maritime Equipment Program Management, Department of National Defence
A. Leslie  Chief of the Land Staff, Department of National Defence

9:10 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen.

Thanks for providing us an opportunity to come here today and speak to you. Certainly we were encouraged by the active role that the committee is taking in the study of matters of national defence, and we look forward to this discussion of maritime procurement. I'm very pleased to be here with colleagues from Public Works, and with Commodore Greenwood, who I would characterize simply as the navy's engineer.

As Chief of the maritime staff and commander of Canada's navy, I am responsible for providing maritime forces to operational commanders who employ maritime power. This is what we call force generation, and it consists of providing commanders not only maritime forces that are equipped and trained for any mission, but also in establishing the policies, standards and doctrine that will translate into tactical excellence in maritime operations. This includes the setting of requirements for new or replacement capabilities that will ensure the continuing success of maritime operations.

The role military requirements play at the beginning of the procurement business has been introduced by previous witnesses, and I'd be pleased to discuss this further during the Q and A period. I'd like to focus my comments on those things that tend to make maritime procurement unique.

The uniqueness of maritime procurement is attributable to the cost of maritime platforms, due to their complexity, and the timeframes over which they are acquired and employed. Delivering new or replacement capabilities takes longer than in the other environments because of the nature of warship design and construction—since warships are the most complex platforms the Canadian forces own.

Each of our warships is a self-contained entity that shouldn't be thought of as the equivalent of a fighter aircraft or a tank. In fact, as some of you have seen first-hand in visiting our ships, as a tactical platform each warship is more like parts of an army battle group or a flight of combat aircraft, as well as parts of the many assets that deploy and sustain those capabilities in theatre--strategic and tactical lift, combat support, combat service support, long-haul communications, intelligence, surveillance, force protection, and so on and so on--all rolled into one platform.

Virtually all these war-fighting and enabling capabilities are designed into warships from the keel up, and it's these organic and highly integrated capabilities that permit ships to operate globally for months at a time with the inherent flexibility to accomplish a range of different missions when deployed, as well as to seamlessly integrate into larger maritime formations when that's required.

All of this capability in a single package comes at an upfront cost that tends to create a little bit of a sticker shock among policy-makers, and that tends to delay maritime force recapitalization.

What's not often appreciated is the fact that despite the initial costs of maritime forces, the navy is the least expensive of the three services. This is the case when viewed across the entirety of the defence services program, which includes not only the capital costs for combat fleets, but also their ongoing sustainment costs, enabling infrastructure, research and development, and especially their personnel costs, and so on.

To that fact needs to be added the longevity of naval platforms and the timeframe measured in decades over which the initial capital investment in warships achieves effect. After all, the Iroquois-class destroyers were designed in the 1960s, commissioned in the 1970s, updated in the 1990s, and are still performing exceptionally well as both air defence platforms and command and control ships for the Canadian Forces, as well as for the NATO alliance and coalition forces.

And I have little doubt that any project to replace the Iroquois-class and Halifax-class will be very expensive, but our experience is that the replacement ships will serve from late in the next decade through until the 2050s or 2060s.

Nevertheless, the upfront costs of building or modernizing a class of ships is the largest challenge in military procurement that naval planners confront. That challenge has certainly made it difficult to proceed with capability replacement or creation. Even as the last of the Halifax-class frigates was delivered in 1996, we dealt departmentally with several project deferments or cancellations.

The real consequence of those deferment and cancellation decisions has been to increase the strategic risk that we will have diminished output in the middle of the next decade. Simply put, we will have fewer hulls available to respond to contingencies as we begin to modernize the Halifax class frigates.

Moreover, the later we introduce future surface combatants to replace our current ships, the greater may be the need to introduce them in a relatively compressed period of time, and that means we potentially miss an opportunity to break the boom-and-bust cycle that's long characterized naval procurement.

Previous witnesses have stated that the replacement of a warship class is one of those instances that favours a design-build approach to procurement, and there are a number of reasons for this.

First, ships are built in much smaller numbers than other fighting fleets, such as vehicles or aircraft. As a result, shipbuilding remains largely a made-to-order industry, despite the worldwide consolidation of maritime defence industries.

Second, national requirements have a major impact by virtue of the highly integrated nature of warship design. Embedded into ship design is the entire structure and philosophy of a navy's establishment, the concept of employment, manning, training and education, and maintenance, as well as conditions of service.

The design-build approach is exemplified by the Joint Support Ship project. As previous defence industry witnesses have noted, JSS has been more open during the pre-definition and definition phases than previous major warship activities. The project office is decidedly smaller than was the case for the Halifax class project, and it has made greater use of contracted engineering design support than was the case in the past. Commander Greenwood will be pleased to elaborate on these points in the questions and answers to follow.

Ladies and gentlemen, with that, I'd merely emphasize that our ability to make long-term achievable and affordable plans over the life cycles typical for maritime forces creates the predictability that allows us to optimize our force planning, generation, and employment in the long term.

Mr. Chairman, thanks for the opportunity to make remarks. I'd be happy to take your questions.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal John Cannis

Thank you very much, Vice-Admiral.

We'll go to our first questioner, Monsieur Coderre.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Vice-admiral, thank you for being here today. Welcome to our committee. I have several questions to ask you, including one that may seem more policy-oriented.

We know that given climate change and the configuration of our country—our geography dictates our policy—we necessarily need a stronger Arctic policy.

As far as you're concerned, do you think you need to focus more on domestic needs than international needs? You are there either way to provide support, we know that, but in light of your forces' needs, do you not think we should focus a little bit more on the navy, to give you a bit more budget or redesign the Canadian Forces' budget overall to give a little more to the navy, given the fact that you have an important role to play from the geopolitical and geographical standpoint?

9:20 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

If I understand the question broadly, it's simply one of allocation of resources. Sailors are always happy to get more resources; previous folks have always noted that sailors never turn money back.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

That's a very good answer.

9:20 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

It is always a question of balance in building an armed force. What the last few of years since 9/11 have shown us is the absolute need to have balanced capability across an armed force, and not in any one area.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Do you feel you're the poor cousins of the Canadian Forces? We Liberals believed, for example, that we wouldn't get involved in the C-17s. We felt we should have rented instead of spending $3.4 billion.

Because there's some domestic necessity, specifically I think we should invest more in the navy. It's all about reallocation, of course, but don't you think that in terms of what you live with in the field right now, you need more capacity than what you have, and that maybe we should internally put more emphasis on the navy than maybe the other forces?

9:20 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

Of course, like either of my two colleagues from the air force or the army, I would welcome additional resources for a variety of undertakings. Like any department, however, we have budgets to work within.

I'd go back to the fundamental point. When it comes back to building an armed force, that's what one has to do, rather than building an army, navy, or air force. The conception has to be about that balance.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you.

General Hillier, who is very outspoken, as we know, has said that requirements are like lines in the sand in this case. He has said what he wants, and he includes ships, airplanes, and helicopters.

How do you manage your own requirements? Do you give him a list of your needs? How does it work? What's the relationship with the CDS in the chain of command? How do you define your own requirements, your needs at the navy level, inside that chain?

9:20 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

At the navy level?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

At your level.

9:20 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

We look ahead at the future security environment, based on the work that we're doing today. Over the past year, we've had ships deployed with the alliance in the Mediterranean and off the coast of Africa. We have a ship that's just coming back from doing maritime security work with coalition forces in the Persian Gulf region. From all of those deployments, from our exercises, we make observations about where we think we should be doing things differently and where we need new capabilities for the future.

We also focus on what for most would seem to be the very long term, because naval capability is only delivered over a period of eight to ten years. We are always looking at what is likely to happen a decade to two decades from now. In terms of what can be put into warships or what new warships might look like, 2017 is almost tomorrow. In that regard, we watch what's going on around the world.

A decade from now, I would expect to see a variety of technological advances in the hands of coastal nations around the world, and those will require us to adapt over the coming decade. There would be several great examples, and I think the best would be the attack that Hezbollah put in against an Israeli frigate last summer. That shows the proliferation of capabilities to a terrorist organization.

A decade from now, we expect that terrorist organizations won't simply have a missile that travels at Mach 1; anyone could expect that surface missiles would be proliferated to travel at something of the order of Mach 2 or greater. We have to be able to work in the littoral region, and we have to be able to defend ourselves against that kind of capability.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Mr. Williston, when I compare what's going on at the naval level to the army and.... Well, let's take the navy versus the air force. The naval level is really open and transparent. You don't have any ACANs. The industry knows in advance. By 2005 they were aware of the statement of operational requirements.

Why the difference between the air force and the navy? I would say the naval force is truly a model of transparent competition. Do you have the same definition of “transparency” at the air force level as they have at the naval end because they have a direct link with the industry?

9:25 a.m.

Terry Williston Director General, Land, Aerospace and Marine Systems and Major Projects Sector, Public Works and Government Services Canada

I would personally think the level of transparency is relatively equal in all arms of the armed services.

One thing I would comment on is the comment that was made about the length of time it takes to develop naval requirements. I heard that 2015 is tomorrow, so I think there's a longer focus or a longer look to the future for those kinds of requirements. There's much more preliminary work done in the navy, perhaps, than in the other arms. From a procurement standpoint, though, I would think we offer the same level of transparency for all of the procurements we're attempting to proceed with.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal John Cannis

Thank you, Mr. Williston.

We'll go onto Monsieur Bachand.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to the witnesses appearing before us this morning.

My first question is for Admiral Robertson. I don't know how you would proceed to weigh the value of the different projects. The government announced six projects costing a total of $20 billion. Of this amount, $16 billion are for the air force, $3 billion for the maritime forces and $1 billion for the land forces.

First, I would like to know what your reaction is to this. Do you believe the air force has such pressing needs that it requires 70% of the total amount allocated? Only 15% of the total amount would be allocated to the maritime forces. Do you support the breakdown of this amount between the three army corps in other words the marine, air and land forces?

9:25 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

If you were to go back over the last thirty years, and indeed if you were to forecast ahead over perhaps twenty or thirty years, you would see that the percentages allocated year by year fluctuate greatly, but that they tend to be relatively constant over time.

I'll give you an example. In the early 1990s, a huge investment was made in the navy that is continuing to pay off today, and that was the Halifax-class frigates, which were an upgrade over the Iroquois class. At that point, those two major crown investments were consuming a large portion of the available capital money, and there were people in the army and the air force who might have encouraged the same question to be asked about why the navy was being allowed to hog all of the armed forces money. So this does tend to go in cycles.

In the early 1990s, that was a function of the rust-out of the ships that we built in the 1950s and 1960s. We needed to make great change quickly. That was appreciated, so there was a reinvestment made.

That's not where we are today with the maritime forces, but there will need to be a reinvestment made in coming years. Again, it comes down to a question of balance. At this point, the air force absolutely needs reinvestment, and there will be a time to make a significant reinvestment in the navy in years to come.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

So, you say that over a prolonged period, it tends to even out.

I'd like to hear your opinion as to the importance of maintaining the supply vessel fleet. I'll give you an example. What would happen if, to pay for the aircraft, we had to decommission supply ships? Would you agree to that? That is the rumour we are hearing increasingly. According to me, if supply ships have to accompany a task force of ships and that we no longer have supply ships, we will have to ask for the Americans' help. If Americans are busy elsewhere, our ships and the task force will not be put to sea.

Would you agree to the department perhaps saying that supply ships would have to remain tied up at the dock until ordered otherwise because we've had to pay for the aircraft and there's no money left? What would your reaction to that be?

9:30 a.m.

VAdm D. Robertson

That question is based on perhaps an incorrect understanding of how the money is allocated. I should explain that the purchase of aircraft is capital money funded through one stream, as opposed to the ongoing maintenance of our ships, which is the ongoing O and M moneys that are given to the materiel group and given to the naval forces. I certainly expect that, for the reasons you cited—the importance of having those ships—we'll keep them running for several years to come.

At some period prior to receiving the first of the joint support ships, there will be a logical point when it will make sense to do what we have always done in the past. We typically decommission a serving ship some eighteen months or less prior to the commissioning of a new ship. We then take the crew and put them through all of the training required to operate the new vessel—in this case the joint support ship—so that the ship is effective on the first day.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

All right. I will now move to Mr. Williston.

Mr. Williston, Dan Ross told us that the new way of operating, with respect to procurement within government, involves bringing together people from National Defence, Public Works, Industry and Treasury Board.

Do you agree with that?

9:30 a.m.

Director General, Land, Aerospace and Marine Systems and Major Projects Sector, Public Works and Government Services Canada

Terry Williston

Yes, I agree.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

All right. In that case, you'll have to try to explain to me how you set your priorities. As I stated earlier on, the minister announced six programs and I would imagine this committee met to discuss the matter. So, the Defence department decided on the purchases to be carried out under these six programs. How did you set these priorities? Why buy C-17s first? Why buy the others at the end? Why are there adjudication contracts for some? Why letters of intent for others? Could you try to briefly explain this to me, unfortunately I have very little time left.

9:35 a.m.

Director General, Land, Aerospace and Marine Systems and Major Projects Sector, Public Works and Government Services Canada

Terry Williston

The interdepartmental committees that I had mentioned before talk about projects specifically. So once a project has been approved, we meet as a group, as a senior project advisory committee, to determine the requirements for that particular project, the procurement strategy, and all the other parameters surrounding it.

When it comes to priority-setting at the departmental level, that's for the Department of National Defence to do and to answer to.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal John Cannis

Merci.

Ms. Black.

February 22nd, 2007 / 9:35 a.m.

NDP

Dawn Black NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing at our committee today. I think you went through quite extensively the cycle of renewal of ships, and that was helpful.

A lot of people have suggested that we in Canada should make a long-term commitment to a steady production of ships, every 20 years or so. How do you, or the Canadian navy, see domestic shipbuilding capacity? Do you see that as a strategic asset in Canada?