National Defence Committee on March 11th, 2008

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I would expect it would be the CF health services that would keep numbers of the diagnosis and how many members, such as the 2002 statistics that were gathered. They would have to conduct a similar study to have numbers to answer your question, sir.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Do you deal a lot with the families of those who are killed? Or is it mainly those who survive?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

As I said earlier, I talked about the bereavement peer support program of OSISS that was created September 2006. We have served 77 peers who have lost a loved one, either a spouse, parents, or siblings. That's how much we've been involved so far.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

That's most of them.

Kathy, what about somebody who is charged? I know the accidental discharge of a rifle killed a fellow soldier. Was that family involved? I can just imagine the mental anguish those people are going through waiting for their son to be dealt with in the military justice system. Are those people being reached out to or are they reaching out to you?

[Kathy Darte]

I can't speak to individual situations, Mr. McGuire, but what we do through our program is make people aware by reaching out, just through awareness, that we have a part of the OSISS program that is for families who have lost a loved one, whether it be to sudden combat trauma or.... Also we lose military members and we lose veterans from a terminal illness, which again is very traumatic to a family. So of the 77 that we have seen, they're not all due to direct combat trauma in deployment like Afghanistan.

So I think through awareness of our program...and the awareness is not only with OSISS, but with my department, Veterans Affairs. With DND knowing that OSISS has a bereavement component, they will make individuals that they are in contact with aware of this particular component we have and refer them to us or suggest to the individuals that they may want to connect up with OSISS. The same is true from the Veterans Affairs side. They are aware that we do reach out to families. So the individuals may be in contact not with OSISS initially, but with Veterans Affairs. And Veterans Affairs will say that it may be good for them to connect with the OSISS program.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

If I may, Mr. McGuire, we know of whom you speak. In fact, I know the parents very well; they come to Calgary for the annual ceremony, and part of the healing process for them was to talk to fellow parents and widows and so forth. They're very sympathetic to the other family.

That having been said, it goes back to the peers here. If that individual or that family were to come forth to one of the PSCs or FPSCs, they wouldn't turn anybody away, even though it's not in their mandate. Do they talk to RCMP people who have problems? You're darn right. You can ask them. They don't turn anybody away. If somebody comes in, even though it may not be officially sanctioned by either of the departments, they will sit down and have a coffee and suggest that they seek some counselling.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I know General Hillier dropped into Cyprus at least once. I was wondering if that would have a pretty positive effect on people who were whole or wounded and going through that decompression process. Are you using commanders as part of your process too? Are their ex-commanders visiting these people to follow up when they're up there?

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

General Hillier is one of the very strong supporters of the Eykelenboom Boomer’s Legacy, which is run by Maureen Eykelenboom in memory of the medic who was killed. As a matter of fact, I'm one of the directors.

General Hillier's personal involvement in fundraisers is significant. The military family fund--he's one of the shining lights, to the extent that he'll.... In fact he's attending another function in Calgary on June 14. He loves Calgary because there's lots of money there for the fundraisers and so forth. He is very dynamic, very charismatic.

I don't think there's a soldier in the service who doesn't look to him as an outstanding example of leadership. His personal presence along with General Leslie and the others--the air force chief of staff and so forth--in showing the flag at their units is what commanders are paid for. It's to get out there and talk to the people, and not only to talk to the operational units and visit unexpectedly in some cases, but to go to these fundraisers. I've seen him relate with the four families out of Calgary who lost family. The reception will take them aside, and they'll have a tête-à-tête.

Does that answer your question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again I'd like to welcome you all here.

I'd just like to say first off, though, Colonel Ethell, that I think it's gone without being noted that you're the most decorated peacekeeper in Canadian history.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

Well, thank you, sir. I've done 14 tours; that's why my OSI didn't get identified until last year.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

I'd like to say that we really appreciate your involvement at this stage in your career in providing OSISS with your leadership and your experience for our soldiers.

One of the things about jumping late into the conversation here, as some of us are doing, is that a lot of questions have been asked already.

I'd like to make an observation, if I may. First, in my riding on the west coast we have an organization called NIDMAR. It's the National Institute of Disability Management and Research. I don't know if you've heard of it, but we're talking about workplace injuries in that context. They have developed a program, and British Columbia is actually establishing Pacific Coast University--the province just dedicated it--for managing workplace injuries. The type of HR management they're promoting involves getting involved early with workplace injuries and making sure they're followed up so that they get the treatment they need at the beginning and that they get the follow-up. If they're not possible to rehabilitate, they find room for them in the workplace somehow.

The credentials are being accepted worldwide. It's a bit of a Canadian success story, although we still have major challenges.

What I wanted to say is that what I hear here is the military seems to be actually following along on that pathway in making sure you're doing the right thing by getting involved early. I want to applaud what I hear happening with the peer support, and the fact that we have volunteers involved to a certain extent with bereavement in families. Boy, when we're short of mental health workers, there's nobody actually better as a first point of contact than people who have actually been on the ground and understand the pressures people have been under.

I think you're doing something tremendous, and maybe there is some international support that you might find beneficial for training your two HR leaders here, really, and then a bunch of volunteers and support people around you. There is some great stuff happening in that realm, and it sounds as though you're on the right track.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

If I may, the two co-managers here have conducted many briefings in the United States, everything from Miami to Las Vegas. They didn't go there because of the gambling. They went there because there was a conference there, and in the Netherlands and so forth. That's where we're having the next AC meeting.

The other thing is Colonel Stéphane Grenier is back in the saddle as the OSI adviser to the chief of military personnel, and, as such, he's involved along with the director of mental health from Veterans Affairs in Senator Kirby's commission and on a couple of their committees there.

They're also expanding into the civilian world—and Mariane can talk more knowledgeably than I—with initiatives in Regina at the university there. We had an excellent presentation by four students from the University of Toronto--the engineering faculty, believe it or not--who wanted to set up a peer-oriented program. Boy, our country is in good shape if all our kids are as switched on as these four were. It was literally outstanding.

That's the spread of the OSISS program.

Who can we have talk about OSISS? These two? Okay, for the organizational element or Colonel Grenier.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

That's great.

I want to jump in and ask a question that hasn't been asked. My colleagues will all know this, as I've been asking it of some of our senior medical personnel who have been here on behalf of DND, and that is about some of the options on treatment. I've talked about it from the top level and some of the medical personnel treating soldiers, but you're dealing with people for our front-line peer support groups. You're meeting people right at the grassroots level. With the treatment options you're saying are offered, a lot of soldiers don't want to go on the drugs. I'm aware of some soldiers who have very good success with the non-drug approach, with the approved approach of the EMDR. I wonder what your experience is with people who may have had that option presented to them. Can you comment on any experiences you've had with the non-drug treatment and EMDR?

[Shawn Hearn]

I don't think that it's fair for me to comment on that, because my role is strictly peer support. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not a psychologist, social worker, or anyone from a mental health background. I don't offer any advice to my peers about medications or any types of therapies or anything like that. However, part of our role is if the therapist or mental health professional recommends, then we encourage treatment and compliance with those plans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, you're out of time, but you did get your vitamin question in.

Over to Mr. Coderre, and then back to the government.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I don't have any questions on vitamins, but I'd like to talk about confidentiality.

We are able to identify one of the problems. The reason that I am asking you this question is that you are sort of champions for this kind of support. People come to you and you understand. The culture has to change.

One of the problems we need to deal with is that some soldiers, according to experts, are afraid to speak out because they are afraid that information from their file will get out. It is also a bit of a macho thing. If they return to a combat role, they may feel shame, regardless of their attitude.

How do you view the need for confidentiality? Are you certain that files are now treated with complete confidentiality? If you put yourself in the shoes of a soldier or a veteran in that kind of situation—and not with respect to what happens at National Defence—do you believe that things have improved? What do you do to assure people that they can speak freely and that even when things move to the next stage, they will not have to worry?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

On the OSISS side, in terms of confidentiality, I am totally confident in saying that it's fully confidential. It is actually probably une pierre d'angle of our program. It's such a necessity that the soldiers know that when they talk to Shawn or when they talk to Cyndi, there are no files kept. We don't keep files on people.

Kathy and I are unaware of the names of our peers.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I am really trying to understand what goes through the soldiers' minds.

Do you often hear that they worry about possible breaches in confidentiality? They do not want to confide in anyone other than you, because you are close to them and you have experienced the same kind of situations. But there have to be steps taken with their file. Do you often hear that they do not want to get help because they are afraid that the information will be revealed?

[Shawn Hearn]

Sir, one of our biggest assets is that we listen to these individuals without judgment. Yes, there is a lot of fear on the soldiers' part--fear of being branded or labelled by peers, or being shunned or ostracized by peers. A lot of times in the CF world, these symptoms are seen as a sign of weakness, although it is getting better. We still have a ways to go.

The number one reason I see for soldiers being afraid to go for help is not so much that they're afraid of the system, but rather it is the fear of jeopardizing their career--“I'm not going to get that next tour. I'm not going to get that next promotion. I may not be promoted.”

Part of our job is that when they come to us.... Again, I can speak to these individuals as a soldier. I can put things into a more balanced perspective. I can affirm and reframe actually what's going on with them.

I'm currently seeing 16 vets of Afghanistan right now in Newfoundland. Some are still serving. These individuals come to me. A lot of times, as I said earlier, what I hear is very confidential and extreme. They're really unsure about what's happening with them.

A part of my job is to encourage these individuals to either go through the CF health system, where the proper professionals are in place.... Again, if a soldier comes to me and says he has something going on, I don't say “You've got PTSD” or “You have an OSI”, because I'm not qualified to do that. But I do encourage them to seek treatment.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I guess my question, Shawn, is are you assured that if you send them to DND, and they go through due diligence and through the process, you can tell them with certainty to go ahead, there's no problem, and they're going to be treated great, not only at the clinical level but also at the bureaucratic level? The problem is that they are afraid to talk mostly because of their jobs. They might have a medical release or whatever, and they see that as a downer. Do you trust the system? That's basically the question.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

If I may, sir, you have to trust the system. That's why you have the mental health professionals there, and the doctors and so forth. The medical documents are confidential.

However, having said that, the bureaucracy is such that if an individual has a problem and needs to receive treatment or needs to be released, then that's the way it's going to go. There's a hesitancy by the soldier to come forward. The danger, as these people have experienced, I'm sure, personally, having faced a number of suicidal events, is that if that individual doesn't go forward, it may trigger something else and it may do damage to him or her.

You could almost say it's a Catch-22 situation. You have to go and seek some help from somebody, because if you don't, you may have additional problems. As Shawn and Cyndi have emphasized a number of times, they're not professional clinicians but they can steer people toward them. And they know the signs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

To end this round, Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to welcome you to the committee. I have missed a few meetings lately, but I have the impression that this was an important meeting to attend. I want to congratulate you on this program that I would call a mentoring program. I am an engineer. We have our own kind of mentoring program for engineers. Some information can be shared among peers that cannot be provided in any other way. That is the key aspect of your program.

There has been talk about funding. I think that your program is an investment because you are able to help people who have much more serious health and psychological problems. We are basically talking about broken lives. You can give these people hope and help them get back on their feet. That is extremely encouraging. What you are doing goes to the heart of our work, and so it is interesting to listen to you.

You are helping us understand and demystify post-traumatic stress syndrome. I have a few short questions for you on that.

Do you also help people who have psychological problems? You said that there are 21 coordinators for peers, who are soldiers and veterans, and 20 for families. You mentioned that there were 3,000 clients and 77 families. I find the number of military peers very high compared with the number of families.

Do you have francophone coordinators? If so, how many? Does the number depend on demand? It is important for people to be able to speak French if that is their mother tongue. I see that you have coordinators who speak Newfoundland, which is the third national language, but do you have coordinators who speak French?

If there is time, I will ask a more personal question.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

In Montreal, Saint-Jean and Valcartier, our coordinators have to be francophone. This service is offered in French in Quebec. I hope that that answers your questions on that issue.

The matter of the ratio is important. The peer support program for soldiers and veterans really began in 2001-2002. But the services for families started only in 2005. Until last summer, we had only six coordinators for all of Canada, and then another position was added in Ontario. Last year as well, the Department of National Defence gave us six extra positions, and Veterans Affairs added eight more. Not all of the family support coordinator positions have been staffed to this point. That will be completed between now and next summer. The number of families who receive services depends on availability. Since not all the positions have been staffed, the ratio seems unequal.

I hope that I have answered your question.