National Defence Committee on March 11th, 2008

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

It seems to me that there are not many coordinators for the 3,000 soldiers. Are there only 21 coordinators?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Yes, there are 21. According to the statistics compiled over the years, 3,000 soldiers and veterans have been provided services by the Operational Stress Injury Social Support program. Some of them are no longer using the service.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

If 25,000 members of the military have been to Afghanistan and 10% to 15% of them will suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome, then that means that there will be another contingent. You have a potential pool of 2,000 to 3,000 new military personnel. Therefore there has to be a significant increase in military personnel.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, we have already made a budget request for the next fiscal year, that is for the 1^st of April to the 31^st of March. I have also made a request for more coordinators.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

There is also of the issue of psychological assistance. Have you...

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I am not sure I understood your question.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Apparently there are psychological issues and there is post-traumatic stress syndrome.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Those are called operational stress injuries. That does not only include post-traumatic stress syndrome, which is a diagnosis. The term “operational stress injuries” is not a diagnosis but rather a term that includes all the other psychological disturbances that you are referring to. Those may be anxiety of depression. In fact, depression is probably the most common psychological impairment that has been observed in surveys and investigations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead, sir.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

If I may, I'll just clarify a point.

Remember, the figures you're hearing are for those who are approaching the PSCs and so forth. There are quite a number of people who will walk in, particularly in the district offices and so forth, who will not have seen a PSC. The number in the veterans community is around 10,000, but they didn't all go through PSCs.

Numbers can be warped to tell you what you want them to tell you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

We're on the last round. We have ten minutes before the bell rings, so let's proceed as quickly as we possibly can--official opposition, government, and then Bloc.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I know that this question has often been asked and the experts have provided us with an answer, but do you see an increase in operational impairments due to a change in mission? A mission is a mission and one may witness terrifying things, as in Rwanda, for example. Do you think that the fact that you are involved in a combat mission in Afghanistan will change how you feel following your experiences in the past within other missions?

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

No. I'm going to answer that to start with.

As one of your members indicated, with all due respect to the combat role, sometimes on the other missions you are not able to return fire. You have to stand there and take it, including suffering casualties, as they did in many missions, such as the Turkish invasion, when the Canadians fought the Turks for control of the airfield, the Beirut situation in southern Lebanon, when you're at the mercy of air attacks, and so forth. Sometimes it's more awkward—you have to use that term—than a purely combat role.

I don't know what the figures or percentages are now, but Afghanistan has brought OSI, PTSD, addiction, and so forth out of the closet because there's so much focus on Afghanistan, and rightly so. We have people in Darfur. We have others who are serving in some very contentious areas, and they're going through some of the traumas.

It has convinced people, as I indicated, right back, including a couple from World War II who have walked through the door at Veterans Affairs. So the numbers have gone up dramatically, and they're going to go higher. As Major Le Beau has indicated, these kids coming back from Afghanistan, those passengers I was telling you about in the LAV where the driver was killed and so forth, that may not come back to haunt them for four or five years. So it's a growth industry. I hate to use that term, but it is.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

The experts have told us, and it makes sense, that the more one participates in missions, the higher one's risk of suffering from a syndrome, whether that be extreme anxiety or post-traumatic stress.

For example, in Afghanistan there are non- commissioned officers and combat soldiers. Some non- commissioned officers have been to Afghanistan six, seven or eight times. Perhaps I did not understand what you were saying. Can you tell me what the difference is between the high brass, the upper ranks, and the other soldiers?

In your-follow up, have you noted a difference between those in positions of command and the others?

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

I'm going to ask Shawn to comment on that and then Major Le Beau, but I can assure you as a long-time infanteer and so forth.... You look at the actions that have happened in Afghanistan and elsewhere. The regimental sergeant major was killed. His two warrant officers were killed. There have been a number of officers, including majors and so forth, who have been decorated by Her Excellency, as have there been a number of corporals and privates.

We've always been taught to lead from the front. So you're going to take probably fewer casualties in the command structure than you are at the level of corporals and privates, because if it wasn't for the corporals and privates you wouldn't be in the command structure. They're the whole guts of the unit.

Shawn.

[Shawn Hearn]

Sir, my take on it is that I really don't think that PTSD makes any distinctions—and this is strictly from my point of view—on who it's going to hit. They say it can happen to some of the finest. I'm dealing with people of a lot of different ranks, and I haven't seen it being limited to just the non-commissioned members.

One other thing I did see from my time in Cyprus in speaking to some of the chain of command and some of the senior leadership who were at one time my bosses or my commanders: there was a big worry for them on how their troops were doing when they came back. But again, I haven't seen it being limited to just privates and corporals. It makes no distinctions, I think.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.

I have one last question. Maybe this can go to Ms. Greene and Mr. Hearne.

In the case where someone is no longer deployable, do you think the process is appropriate for the military? Because this is a tough decision that you have to go through. Do you think that the process in which the military forces decide that you are no longer deployable because of a psychological issue is appropriate? Is it reversible? Could you comment on this?

[Cyndi Greene]

The decision on whether someone is deployable or not is a medical decision, obviously. Is it reversible? Yes, it is.

Some people have been diagnosed with different conditions on temporary categories and they get treated and get better and they can be redeployed. So yes, it is, and we've known of many OSI sufferers who have been treated, gotten better, and have continued on with their military career.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

The decision as to whether someone is deployable or not is a medical decision, obviously.

Now, is it reversible? Yes, it is. Some people have been diagnosed with different conditions on temporary categories, and they get treated and get better. They can be redeployed. So yes, it is reversible. We've known of many OSI sufferers who've been treated, gotten better, and have continued with their military careers.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

If I may just conclude, you say that as coordinator you have two ears and one mouth. I think that as politicians we are often seen as having two mouths and one ear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

That is a dangerous feature to have.

Go ahead.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I have one quick question.

When I looked through one of these folders from you previously, I thought there was a CD, a little movie. Is that something you could provide to the members of this committee?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Yes, absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We still have some time.