National Defence Committee on March 11th, 2008

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

What process do they go through when they're coming up to that, when you're choosing your volunteers? And what training do they get? I mean, they're going through some rough times themselves. At what point does it come to “Okay, I'm past the point where I need the support”?

To a certain extent, it's therapeutic just being able to talk to somebody else who's coming up and who wants to be where you are. So it's kind of therapeutic that way. But at what point do you decide, or does a volunteer decide, they're well enough to talk to other people? And at what point do you decide it's safe to put the two together?

I mean, you're talking about very ambiguous areas. It's kind of hard to decide.

[Shawn Hearn]

At the end of the day, they're all soldiers, so right from the beginning they want to help.

We know the peers. I spend time with them and talk to them. I see them face to face. In Newfoundland I have the luxury of having a lot of these individuals come to major centres, so we bring these individuals along.

That's not to forget, though, that all these individuals are in touch with therapists. If I go to an individual and ask them to become a volunteer with the OSISS program, or if, vice versa, they ask if they can become a volunteer with the OSISS program, we have the individual get a medical screening form signed by his or her psychologist saying that there are no negative implications in their being employed as an OSISS volunteer or with the OSISS program.

Not only that, but we know these individuals pretty well. We know where they're to in their recovery. We know what's going on with them and if they do have the potential to go out and meet one on one with peers, to run groups, or to speak to peers. Only certain individuals are cut out to do this.

At the end of the day, the most important thing is self-care. We try not to do any harm here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

Over to Ms. Gallant, and then back to the Bloc.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and through you to the witnesses.

First of all, congratulations on the growth and success of your efforts with OSISS overall. I'm sorry there's a need for it, but I remember when you were a very small organization, just a handful of people.

I also understand that the U.S. military is using OSISS as a model for their issues with PTSD. I'm also pleased to learn that the founder, Colonel Grenier, whom I believe is depicted on this brochure, is back with OSISS and playing an important role, I understand.

In some of the cases, does OSISS, in addition to helping the veterans, serve as a bridge? I understand you're peer support, but does it serve as the bridge between serving volunteers reaching out for help and actually getting the psychiatric treatment they need?

That's to whoever would like to answer it.

[Kathy Darte]

Yes, they do serve. That's a big part of what they do, being that bridge. A lot of individuals, as we discussed earlier here today, have fallen through the cracks, are in basements. They're very isolated. When they connect with people like Cyndi and Shawn, Cyndi and Shawn act as where they can be if they can get themselves into treatment.

Oftentimes they're very skeptical of treatment. They're not comfortable with coming forward for treatment, or maybe they've already been in treatment and they didn't find that it worked for them. So Cyndi and Shawn work with them, try to build that trust if that trust had been broken previously in the system, and walk with them through the treatment process.

For example, many times they may need to see a mental health professional very frequently, but we know there is a shortage of mental health professionals, so they may not be able to see them every day. But if they see people like Shawn and Cyndi on a daily basis, or a phone call to ask how it's going today, they can discuss with them how it is going and they give them the encouragement to stick with the treatment plan that the individual mental health professional has set up for them. So they help them stay within treatment by walking with them and encouraging them that they can be like the Cyndis and the Shawns if they go through that process.

Some journeys are long and some are short, but OSISS is a big part of getting individuals into the health care system, because they're not going to recover unless they do get into that clinical side of the services that they desperately need.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

In your area, Ms. Gallant, Petawawa, the former base commander, Dave Rundle, who you know quite well, was a permanent member of our advisory council for a couple of years before he moved on. He's an outstanding individual and had a significant number of initiatives on his own, at the peril of his career a couple of times, I think, but he made it work.

On the point that's been made by the Surgeon General in regard to numbers of clinical staff that are not available in your area—because we go back to this business of rural, having to come to Ottawa to see the professionals—the good news is that these folks have recognized that. I'm not putting words in their mouths, but the numbers of PSCs are going up, and I understand there'll be a system for further assistance in the Petawawa area.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

You've jumped to my third question, which was that I was pleased to see in the former Conservative budget the extra funding that was going to OSISS, five centres, but very disappointed to see that it was not going to an isolated area like Petawawa. As you mentioned, Colonel Rundle was very concerned about putting these soldiers who were in the throes of an OSI onto a bus for several hours, coming here for the day, and then back again.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

I couldn't agree more, and with the stigma of getting on that bus.... Where's the bus going? Guess what? And we understand that. But that was obviously not the decision of our two co-managers. It was disappointing, and I know Dave is disappointed in it. We're disappointed in it.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

We're going to continue to push for that.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

Sure. We look at the past, at the present, and where we're going in the future.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

With respect to medical releases, we're heard testimony at both ends of the spectrum. The brass tell us, absolutely not; somebody who goes for treatment for PTSD is not going to be medically released automatically. Then we hear from people on the ground who say they go to see the psychiatrist and are told they're likely to be medically released. That word gets around, and in and of itself it is an obstacle for people to seek the help.

In your experience in dealing with the serving soldiers—our goal is to keep them working, because that's what they want—are they being automatically medically released or on the path to it, or are they getting the help they need to continue to be effective currently serving soldiers?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I apologize, but we need a short response, if you can.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Unfortunately, there's probably not a black and white or yes or no answer on this one, Mrs. Gallant.

I'm not in the management of releases, but based on the peers, there are Shawn and Cyndi, and across Canada. Clearly having an OSI is not an automatic release. More and more, we have heard of protocols and people who have suffered from an OSI and are being treated, recover, and are redeployed.

However, there are definitely people suffering from an OSI who will be released because of their condition, the severity and the resistance to treatment.

So I would say there are probably all kinds of scenarios there, but not black and white.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Mr. Bachand, for five minutes.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here.

Something that caught my attention in your presentation was that you said that your idea was greeted favourably by senior management at National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada. It makes me think of how the principal of my school used to react. When I came up with an activity program, he told me that it was a great idea and that, in addition, it would not cost much. That is what I want to discuss with you. I gathered from your presentation that the program has coordinators, who are paid, I imagine, but it mainly uses volunteers. So what you are running is almost a charity. It is made up of people who want to help their peers.

Here is my concern. Are those in charge of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada investing money in this, or are they like my school principal? Are they simply encouraging you to continue to set up good programs because it does not cost very much and it works well. I think that what you are doing is good, but I am very interested in knowing whether you are being given the resources to really do the job properly. This is especially true since I see that you are not doing clinical work, but rather you are networking and trying to help peers who are also victims.

Would you recommend that the Standing Committee on Defence insist that the minister come up with more substantial funding in order to really help people? The approach that you are taking is different from clinical therapy. I see some people smiling. I think that I am on the right track. I have the impression that you would be onside with our requesting more funding.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

As a non-departmental representative, I'll give you my personal point of view, and these two will skate around the question, or give you a candid opinion.

If you look at where this program started from, with four people, it took senior management, as you say, General Couture and Mr. Ferguson, to get onboard and make it work. But the money wasn't there. They eventually got the money. And lately, as you know, with the new funding for Veterans Affairs, you have the five new OSI clinics. These are very successful and not as bureaucratic as the OTSSCs; you can get through them a little more quickly, which is just a question of the methods of operations between the two departments.

I notice that the Surgeon General, God bless her, is going to bring in 450 more clinical staff. I don't know where she's going to find them, but this will be great. What we would like to see is, how many of those are going to be PSCs, and how many more are going to be FPSCs? I might add that Cyndi is only one of two female peer support coordinators. The FPSCs are all females, so they are a little unique. But it's not a matter of gender, but of who can do the job.

So it would be nice if some of that DND funding—and we have VAC funding of $9.5 million from the last budget....

Is there a shortage? To answer your question, yes, there is, sir. I'm sure they would like to have many more people.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I will continue with you, Colonel Ethell. You head up the advisory committee. The document states very specifically that the committee has no executive powers. So you have to be content to make recommendations. That is why I think that it would be important for you to have the support of parliamentarians. Senior management at Veterans Affairs Canada and National Defence must be telling you that this is great, that they are very pleased with your efforts, that you are doing an extraordinary job, but that they are unfortunately short of funding this year.

Would it not be possible, for example, to amend the National Defence Act to give your organization real recognition in legislation? Then you would have access to much more stable funding.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

That's way out of my purview, but I must admit that I'm on the advisory committee, and we just had a meeting three weeks ago. In the minutes, or the recommendations in the minutes, will be additional PSCs and FPSCs.

As I said, we don't have any executive authority, but we do have influence that gets passed to the senior management and through the two career managers to the respective chains of command.

To be quite frank, it may sound a little self-serving, but the advisory committee has made a number of significant inroads in the thinking and in the improvement in regard to OSI. The only reason that committee exists is because of the OSISS program.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

About budgets, I would like to answer with some numbers and I'll answer in English.

As Mr. Ethell said, it started with four peer support coordinators. We're talking about a budget of $500,000 in 2002 and 2003. It slowly went up to $1.2 million, and in 2005-06 we had about $1.5 million budget. For the year 2006-07 we went up to $2.6 million, an increase of 25% of the previous year. On the DND side I have made representation for another increase of about $800,000 for the next fiscal year. We have had no confirmation at this point for the budget year of 2008-09. These additional budgets are for new positions for PSC and FPSC but also for the bereavement peer support program. We want to create positions in that area as well.

So the budget of OSISS has increased every year throughout its existence. Particularly for the year 2007-08 there's been a substantial increase, and that's just on the DND side. We have to keep in mind that this is a DND-VAC program, and I will let Kathy talk about the financing of the VAC.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We'll have to get back to that. We're just a little over time. Hopefully we could get those. If we don't get back to you, I'd like to have the numbers submitted anyway.

We have Mr. McGuire and then Mr. Lunney.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're told that 79 have been killed so far in Afghanistan and 270 to 280 wounded. How many are mentally wounded? How many have had to be permanently discharged or discharged on a temporary basis from Afghan operations at this point?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Sir, we do not have such information at the OSISS program, I'm sorry. We do not have the capacity to answer that.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

How many people do you treat or are involved in your organization?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

As I said, so far we have 235 peers who have been deployed to Afghanistan and 92 families that are accessing our services that have had a partner involved in Afghanistan. But in terms of those statistics, even in terms of impact, sir, we will probably not know for years what really is the psychological impact on soldiers. So that is a very difficult one to answer.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I was just wondering if there were any current numbers, but you don't have those anyway.