Evidence of meeting #25 for National Defence in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was soldiers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Interim Ombudsman, Office of the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
The committee was set up because, when the office was created, the ombudsman and his senior staff had no experience of the military community, and the members of the committee...
We had in a couple of retired members and current members, just to give ideas. It was just sort of a sounding board more for
the previous ombudsman. The committee reports twice a year and does not discuss confidential matters relating to complaints, it only deals with general or systemic issues.
Interim Ombudsman, Office of the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
Yes, it is very useful.
Col Pat Stogran
Mr. Chair, once again, I apologize. I'm going to launch into this in English.
The advisory committee that was established for the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman was modelled along the lines of the DND ombudsman. The original intent was to offer organizations—I refer to them as the veterans advocacy groups--such as the Legion, ANAVETS, and those people an opportunity to inject their views concerning the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman.
I have taken a different tack. My membership for the veterans ombudsman group will comprise veterans. They may come from these various advisory groups, but I intend, before I launch into one of my tirades that might embarrass the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman, to float past our advisory committee my reports and the things we are going to put out to help the veterans community. It will be with a view to receiving feedback. As the veterans ombudsman, I am certainly going to work with all the veterans advocacy groups to get their ideas on what my priorities should be. But the advisory committee, under the chairmanship of retired Vice-Admiral Larry Murray, is going to be very much giving me advice on how they see my office impacting on the veterans community.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rick Casson
Thank you.
Is everyone done from the official opposition?
Then Mr. Comartin, you get the last word, it seems.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Stogran, I'm just going to make one point. I don't want a response.
If the program you're recommending gets up and running, would you consider some sensitivity training at the time of discharge? I say that from this perspective: the decompression process that goes on, wherever it may be at that time, is, I think, narrowly scoped for that period. At the time people are being discharged, if they have gone through the other preparatory work over the course of their careers, whether it's been short or for their whole career, they're going to need that to be able to move back into society.
I have a question. I'm sorry. Again I apologize for being late. I don't know, Mr. Price, if it was you or Ms. McFadyen who raised the issue of discharge under section 5, as opposed to....
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Are there any numbers as to how many should be under disability and should have the benefits extended that way? Do you have any numbers at all as to how many there are?
Ms. McFadyen, are you getting any complaints in the ombudsman's office on that issue?
Interim Ombudsman, Office of the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
We get many complaints. One of our top five is release categories. Certainly we do look at whether someone has been properly released, because certain benefits flow from your release category. We certainly have been successful in some cases in getting the release category changed.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Can I suggest that it would be the department, then, that would have to track this? Or would it be one of your offices that would track whether the discharge has been appropriate?
Acting Chairperson, Canadian Forces Grievance Board
The trouble with getting numbers is that the department has only just now started a tracking system for grievances. If you were to ask how many grievances were submitted last year in the Canadian Forces, I don't think you would get a clear answer.
We track what we have at the board. The CF has just now started a tracking system whereby they can have a sense of where grievances are submitted and what they are about. They're just now getting their tracking program up and running.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
In terms of assessing whether in fact the discharge was correct or not, should the medical side be brought in? How do you know? I guess I'm asking how the department will know whether in fact they're following....
Acting Chairperson, Canadian Forces Grievance Board
The medical side is brought in. There's a director of medical policy who provides recommendations to the personnel people, but in my view, they're very limited recommendations. The files I alluded to earlier are ones that have to do, more or less, with whether the person knew right from wrong in committing the particular misbehaviour.
The final decision is by the personnel people, and that was my point earlier. I think perhaps a broader view ought to be taken in some of these cases, to look beyond the particular misbehaviour at the person's overall medical condition.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Are there any statistics on how successful the grievances have been?
Acting Chairperson, Canadian Forces Grievance Board
We've just done an informal resolution of one of our cases, in which we had the department review the case. It agreed with us that the appropriate thing to do was to give the person an immediate annuity, which is what happened. So we have success in some cases.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rick Casson
Thank you.
Does anybody want to add anything before we bring the meeting to a close? You've been very good with your responses to the questions. Is there anything we need to know? If you have any suggestions to us as to how we could make the system better, feel free to make those. You might not want to make them now, but if you want to do it in writing.... You know the system far better than we do.
I just have one question to ask before we end.
We've heard that there is opportunity to implement lessons learned; whether in training or on the battlefield, anything that happens is fed back up through the chain of command. Do you have that opportunity? Ms. McFadyen, when you hear from people who have problems, do you have that opportunity to feed back into the system, so that it's corrected before it happens again?
Interim Ombudsman, Office of the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
Yes, that's actually one of our roles. Even though we look at individual cases, we look at the process. So if someone has been treated unfairly, hopefully the recommendations and solutions we propose will help, so that the same thing doesn't happen to the next person.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rick Casson
Do you have an opportunity to do that on day-to-day basis, by picking up the phone and calling somebody, or do you have to put it in your reports on an annual basis, or how do you do it?
Interim Ombudsman, Office of the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
It depends. Certainly our mandate requires us to resolve things at the lowest possible level. I'd say probably 90% of our cases are dealt with that way.
When we're not successful in resolving them, if it's a very important issue we go forward and put it in writing and give them a chance to respond and see what we get back. If we're not successful then and still feel strongly that there was an injustice, at that point we would make the report public.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rick Casson
Thank you.
Is there anything else you want to add before we end?
Thank you all very much. We appreciate your input. It is going to help us with our report.
The meeting is adjourned.
