National Defence Committee on May 6th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Very good. Thank you.

Mr. Bouchard.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank you all for being here.

My first question is to you, Mr. Price. You said that the Canadian Forces are too rigid when dealing with grievances—that is what I understood—and that you would recommend more openness.

Why do you think that is so? Is it because of budgetary issues, because of the way the regulations are being interpreted or because of something else? I would like to hear you about this.

[James Price]

The reasons for release and retirement are in the statute. The reason for release is determined by the personnel administration people. They have a choice in some cases. A medical release is possible, and so is a misconduct type of release.

I was alluding to the rigidity on this point, which, from the cases I have seen, I am a little concerned about. We will be recommending to the chief that he look at some of these cases. It seems to us that there ought to be a more generous view given. In other words, rather than looking at the single incident of misconduct, we should look at the person's entire situation, including the possibility that he may have post-traumatic stress. I don't think it's a budget issue; it's more of a policy issue.

There used to be a mechanism called the Service Pension Board, which determined the reason for retirement versus the reason for release. That board no longer exists. National Defence is putting in a policy to replace it, but it hasn't done so yet. This is what I was alluding to.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Ms. McFadyen, I also heard you say that services are not available for the families of soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. Should we create a new organization or rather reorganize the present system? There seem to be sufficient resources in the Canadian Forces. If not, what additional resources would be required?

[Mary McFadyen]

We are reviewing at this time if the government has implemented our recommendation. We have found that there is a lack of general governance, if only to make sure that services are available across the country. We have soldiers all over the country but services are not always available.

It's not necessarily a matter of throwing money at it. It's just making sure that there is strategic coordination to make sure that the money being spent is being properly allocated so that people are getting the services they need wherever they live.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Now we go over to Mr. Wilfert. Then it's back to Ms. Gallant, then to the official opposition, and then to the government, who will end this round.

Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a couple of questions. On the issue of addressing the culture, do you have suggestions on how...? We keep hearing about the culture, that it's been ingrained for years, that we're not really addressing it in a very proactive manner. There was talk about proactive training, which sounds very nice, but how would you go about doing that?

I note that the federal government announced $1.2 million to establish, with an operating cost of $2 million, a facility in Edmonton to treat both the military and the RCMP. They would have the capacity to deal with 100 to 150 patients a year. I'm sorry, I don't have a handle on the numbers overall. In order to address 100 to 150 patients a year, are we looking at much wider numbers in terms of how they're coming through the system?

Finally, in terms of the grievance procedure, have you noted any reluctance by people to come forward on some of these issues because of fear of reprisal?

[James Price]

Yes, sir, I see that in grievances. I was looking at a grievance this afternoon, in fact, where the member was saying that he hadn't come forward when he should have because he believed acknowledging he had an issue would be a “career stopper”.

So you do see that, yes.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Is there any way to address that type of thing?

[James Price]

I'm not sure. One would hope that what the department has embarked upon--the kinds of things that Mr. Stogran described, and the education program that I know is ongoing--would ameliorate this, but I see the same type of thing when I go on visits to bases. From time to time, commanding officers tell me, getting people to come forward is an issue.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Do you have any comment on the numbers I mentioned--setting up a facility for $1.2 million, dealing with 100 to 150 patients at that facility? Obviously I'm pleased that the government is doing that, but....

[Mary McFadyen]

Certainly Edmonton is a very busy base. They've had a couple of rotations go out of there, so it's good that money is being spent in Edmonton. Certainly, though, we have found that there needs to be a national strategic coordination to make sure the money being spent is properly spent.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

And you don't see that at the present time?

[Mary McFadyen]

That's the general finding we made in our further examination, that there does appear to be more national leadership required.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

How will you flesh that out? And when can we expect to see that?

[Mary McFadyen]

We hope to be finished in the next couple of months and to get something over to the department to review. We hope to get done as quickly as we can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

You have a couple of minutes left.

Okay, Mr. Rota.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I've heard a lot about Edmonton. That whole area is very well served. Now, it sounds like there's a concentration.... We had a gentleman in the other day who was telling us that, for some strange reason, that region is very well served for mental illnesses of all sorts, or basically recovery of all sorts, as far as wounded individuals go.

So we see the concentration there. Do you see a discrepancy between what's happening in Edmonton and, say, Petawawa? We were told that Ontario was almost like a second-class area. If you're wounded in Ontario, you won't get the same services as you would in another part of the country.

Is that something any of you are hearing? Or is that something mentioned in passing just because we had someone from Ontario who got not-so-good service and someone from Edmonton who got what sounded like exceptional service?

[Col Pat Stogran]

I could suggest that Edmonton is a very, very large city in the first place, much larger than anything anywhere near places like Petawawa and Valcartier, and it has the services available. Moreover, Edmonton is a tremendous garrison town. Albertans like having people with guns around, and they treat their military community extremely well.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Col Pat Stogran]

All joking aside, the city—both Calgary, when the brigade used to be there, and now Edmonton—embraces the military community as part of its own. I couldn't comment on the relationship with the other area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you. That used up your time.

Ms. Gallant, and then I'll go back over to the official opposition.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Through you to Ms. McFadyen, first of all, toward the end of your testimony you mentioned something about equal access to care by both the families and the soldiers. Is that part of a report, or was that part of your statement today?

[Mary McFadyen]

We made one recommendation on families in our original report, but certainly when we looked at the status of the 31 recommendations we made in 2002, we realized that operational realities had changed in the CF. Certainly one of the things we have found in the re-examination of the recommendations is that families are not getting the care they need. As we know, health care is divided and families fall under provincial jurisdiction, but the CF places families in situations, and they move around with their spouses, and we're certainly finding that there may not be a legal obligation, but there's a moral obligation.