National Defence Committee on April 27th, 2009

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I'll come back.

[Monique Carpentier, Director General, Coordination and Strategic Issues Branch, Department of Natural Resources]

I'd like to add to what Doug has said, because he's right, each department has a mandate and we are good at doing certain types of things, but not as good at doing others. Only through that collaboration can we really achieve the full mandate of the government.

Another example mentioned that would be of interest to DND is the Arctic winter warfare training that has taken place for the last two years in February. NRCan does the logistics for DND. We help them get to the place and provide food, board, and everything for them. We rely on the information Environment Canada can provide in terms of ice movement. They send that information to the receiving stations, where we get the data. That's another group, and we work with DND.

It's only by using our best knowledge in the field where we are responsible that we can make that strong team. Trying to put everything together would probably be more chaotic than efficient. It takes time, but in the Arctic collaboration with Environment is a way of living there. Nobody wants to do it alone. They all want to rely on and work with somebody else, because it's so harsh there you don't want to do it alone.

So I'm siding with him. I don't believe one group should be in charge. It's really making sure we know where the best expertise and responsibility lie.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Lemmen, you agree with that, right?

[Dr. Don Lemmen]

I do agree with that. The fact of the matter is that the specific focus on climate change influences everybody, and it is the responsibility of each to figure out how to--

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That isn't why I'm asking. It isn't to be ironic. Specifically when we're in the Arctic, it's also an issue of life and death. There are some situations that we have to take care of.

There are three issues, in my book. First of all, of course, you have to understand where you are. I mean the proper environment you are living in, of course. There are some issues right there.

I agree that there is the issue of partnership, but there is an issue of governance, and the governance is as important as the knowledge of your environment. I say that because we are in a new trend of smart regulations, according to Dr. Lussier's report in the past, and our role here is to see what the best role should be for DND and what our place should be within that most important issue. There will be some collateral damage, because when everybody goes to the passage, they will have some major impact not only on our own environment but also on the way people are living there, so there is the question of who would be best for governance. That's why I think governance is equally important.

As a former cabinet minister, I see the way we're working, and of course we can have a committee, but it's a bit more than that. Should we have an agency of the north? At the official level, partnership is great, but when we have too many leaders, sometimes some issues fall through the cracks. That is the reason I was asking you that question.

How do you perceive, then, the role of DND? Is it just a tool to help you to--

[Monique Carpentier]

DND has its own mandate, as we all have our own mandates. I'm not the best person to answer that. I can call in some of the other people, who are better placed--

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

How do you live your mandate within DND, then?

[Monique Carpentier]

In our case, most of the work we do up north in the Arctic is related to providing logistics. We do that for all the federal departments. We are obviously not deploying the troops for DND, but we are their backup in terms of search and rescue, because every summer we have many helicopters and planes in the Arctic. We are backup. We also have a physical installation up there.

Those are the types of things we do with them. We help them with their fuel in Alert. They help us with fuel when we need it. It's the same thing in Eureka, and we have very good collaboration also with the Joint Task Force (North) and Brigadier General Millar.

We are a member of the Arctic sovereignty working group. We bring our knowledge to what we do, and they bring their knowledge. It's more that type of work.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

How do you reconcile both departments? The future of the Arctic is that there are a lot of resources there, and that's why Russia wants a big chunk of it. That's ours, and it will have some impact. There is some collateral damage to the environment. How do you manage to work together on that?

[Doug Bancroft]

We manage quite effectively. We provide the day-to-day weather and ice support required by the military and other people doing security operations and conducting business in the north, as well for as the work that's being done by Natural Resources Canada to lay claim to seabed sovereignty on the ice and through the ice with the icebreaker missions that will be conducted each summer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Bachand, you have seven minutes. I understand you will share your time with Mr. Paillé.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

That's right, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

In my opinion, the decisions affecting the North will have to be based to a large extent on scientific data. I will quote from a report which I read in an English paper. I will read it in English, because I haven't had the time to translate it and I don't want to get it wrong.

Apparently, at the UN, there is a body called

a UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf. This commission grants undersea territorial extension. They just gave up 230,000 square kilometres to Norway, and this is pushing the legal position of Norway to 550 kilometres from the North Pole.

At the moment Canada and Denmark are mapping the undersea area near Lomonosov Ridge and the northern coast of Ellesmere Island. Claims will be overlapping near the North Pole with Russia, along the Mendeleyev and Lomonosov ridges.

I know that Natural Resources Canada produces the most beautiful maps in the world; they are very colourful. Do you think you could send a map to the clerk so that committee members know which country is claiming what and what the timelines are? Do you have such a map? If so, could you send it to us? If not, where could we get one? I'm sure it exists.

[Monique Carpentier]

We have that type of map and we would be pleased to send you some. They are fairly simple and they represent the Arctic, but they include the territories which Russia, the United States, Canada, Norway and Sweden allegedly claim as theirs. I use the word "allegedly" because as long as they don't make a formal claim under the UN Convention, it is up in the air.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Very well. Thank you very much.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Paillé.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you for being here.

How many weather stations are there in Canada and what is their distribution amongst the provinces?

[Monique Carpentier]

How many weather stations?

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Yes, the ones located mainly in the North.

[Doug Bancroft]

I don't have the exact numbers here. We operate many weather stations in the north, both surface-based and upper air sounding, and we can provide that information to the committee very quickly.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you. I would appreciate eventually receiving the answer.

There is more and more traffic in the North. Given that it is a place which is not easy to access, in the case of an oil spill, how long would it take Environment Canada to do what would be necessary to contain a potential spill?

[Doug Bancroft]

The question is directed to Environment Canada, but Environment Canada supports other agencies doing the response. I believe that question could be directed, for example, to the Commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard, who was here, and could be responded to very quickly.

We provide information and support of other agencies operating on the ice, both the operational weather and sea ice information as well as the environmental experts, to assist other departments, including the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, science, and territorial governments, but we do not have the lead in that response.

[Monique Carpentier]

Natural Resources Canada doesn't have a direct response to those types of things.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I have another question for Environment Canada. The report talks about coastal erosion. Could an increase in marine traffic speed up coastal erosion and affect the glaciers, since ships can provoke frequent and unnatural movement?

[Monique Carpentier]

I will let our climate change expert answer.

[Dr. Don Lemmen]

The major factors that are leading to enhanced coastal erosion are related to the decrease in sea ice extent, which then allows greater waves and more fetch to actively erode the coast. So in fact, the sea ice cover is very important for protecting the coastal lands. And as that is present for less of the year, you're getting more storms and greater waves acting upon these coastal lands, which tend to be rich in ice and permafrost, and they erode very rapidly. So the types of factors you're talking about would be exceedingly minor relative to this important influence of extended wave activity.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

So if I understand correctly, there would not be much impact from marine traffic in the next few years. Waves or marine activity would not affect coastal erosion.