National Defence Committee on Feb. 9th, 2009

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

You still have a couple of minutes to use up, if you wish.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

On an entirely different matter, you know that unfortunately the armoury in Quebec City burnt down last year. The government's economic recovery plan calls for rebuilding of the armoury, but we have very few details.

In more practical terms, will it be possible to rebuild it quickly, so that the ruins of the armoury are not left in this condition for too long? Unfortunately, that kind of delay occurs quite often.

[William F. Pentney, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you for your questions, sir.

The government's commitment to rebuilding the armoury remains the same. We must undertake a consultation process. This is what we announced in the last budget. Public Works and Government Services and all the other departments involved will consult citizens so as to determine the best way of using this space, which is important for Canada. We cannot specify a deadline for the consultations, but the commitment to rebuild the armoury remains.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

Over to the government, and then back to the official opposition. You have five minutes, Mr. Boughen.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fonberg, this question is for you. Let me start by saying that the minister, in his remarks, made reference to the Canada first defence strategy, which was announced last year. This 20-year plan will help build the Canadian Forces with both equipment and personnel, ensuring a first-class, modern military, a ready-for-the-future Canadian Forces. He also stated that CFDS investments are going to support a strong and competitive defence industry. Can you explain how this will work? It seems that there has been only negative press about recent purchases for the military.

While you're thinking on that, let me move to another vein. Just as an observation, we hear all the time about how things are going badly in Afghanistan. But I'm always cognizant of this question: what measure is being used to determine that things are going badly? How many bridges have been replaced? How many roads have been improved? What has been the education opportunity for young people in schools? Is the student attendance up? I've been given to understand that over a million young women are now attending schools who did not attend schools before Canada had a presence in that country. Is there land being returned to people that was held by the other folks? Is there an increase in the GNP? Are there irrigation projects, and are there dams being built?

All of these things are part and parcel of Canada's placement in Afghanistan. I think sometimes we overlook these and don't recognize the good work that's being done. I'd just like to make that observation.

Now back to you, Mr. Fonberg, about my first question.

[Robert Fonberg]

Thank you for that question, and thank you for the latter comment also. I think the minister, while he was here, did try to address that question on the progress and on what's been happening with such things as education, health care, and roads.

On the Canada first defence strategy, the 20-year commitment that was made included major capital fleet replacement that has capital acquisition costs of close to $50 billion over the next 20 years. I think the reality of military procurement is that it always is very difficult in the short term. Government made a commitment to the long-term fleet replacement and renewal for the Canadian Forces across air assets, across land assets, and across naval assets.

In all cases, there will be attempts to procure and/or build domestically in Canada, and in those cases where that opportunity is not available, there will be, as the minister talked about, 100% offsets, a requirement by any manufacturer or prime outside of Canada to invest one dollar in the country for every dollar that we pay for their equipment.

Looked at in a 20-year context, and thinking about the certainty that provides to industry, whether it's in the shipbuilding or aerospace areas or around line combat vehicles, I think it gives the government an extraordinary opportunity to allow industry to actually get ready for these investments. The clarity that will come through an investment plan that actually supports the Canada first defence strategy ought to give the confidence to the Canadian supply industry that they can make the kinds of investments that are required to allow them to be more competitive than they might be today, and more able to actually participate in that.

When we look at supporting Canadian industry, we certainly look at it in terms of helping position Canadians and Canadian players in this area for not only an ability to participate in the investments that the Canadian government is going to make for the Canadian Forces, but also, frankly, to play in larger global supply chains. At the end of the day, that's where we'd really like to get Canadians positioned, around the $50 billion of acquisition costs associated with that capital.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Boughen, you're just about spot-on. Are you good?

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Am I out of time, Mr. Chair? I was going to share my time with Ms. Gallant.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

It doesn't matter if you're good or not; you're out of time.

We're over to the official opposition, and then back to the government.

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate having the opportunity to be a back-again new member of this committee.

I have two lines of questioning and comment for you. They are unrelated, but I want to take advantage of the opportunity of being here.

Mr. Fonberg, you may or may not be aware that the decommissioned army base Kapyong is in the heart of my riding. You may or may not be aware that I have tried several times to get a briefing from your department on it and several times have been told to put my questions in writing. As a member of Parliament, I think I deserve an opportunity to have a conversation with somebody about Kapyong, with the full understanding that there are ongoing legal issues there, which I'm quite familiar with. I put that on the table because it is a concern of mine.

I'm also very concerned about the houses that stand empty at Kapyong. We know there are over 100 standing empty. The last time we did a freedom of information request, this situation was costing the government over $250,000. I'd like to know whether there are houses standing empty at bases across the country. I'd appreciate having information sent to me on the regulations that determine who has access to living in these houses and the procedures that have to be followed for that. That's one area I'm concerned about.

Second, I know the committee has been studying mental health or looking at it, and I understand that across the country there's a discrepancy in the funding available for mental health services. I also understand that in December the ombudsman, Ms. McFadyen, issued a report about the discrepancies in funding for services available in different communities across the country. I'm wondering if you have responded to it. What action do you plan to take based on what I understand to be a very serious and blatant discrepancy in mental health funding across the country?

[Robert Fonberg]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll turn the question on mental health funding over to my colleague, the general.

Regarding Kapyong, I was not aware that there had been a number of requests for a briefing. I apologize. I don't see any particular reason we wouldn't actually just give you a briefing, so I will try to arrange for a briefing on Kapyong. Obviously there may be some areas that are more difficult for us to get into than other areas, but I think I can arrange for that to happen, if that's suitable.

On the question of the regulations, I'm not aware of any regulations, but the general may be aware of some. He may also have the answer to the question of who has access to which empty houses and where the empty houses are on the bases across the country. I actually have an assistant deputy minister who deals with all of those issues.

I don't know, General, whether you can answer any of those questions about housing or whether that would be Scott.

I would certainly be prepared to arrange a briefing for you on the question of Kapyong itself.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will address the issue of mental health and the ombudsman's report.

The Canadian Forces and the department are working very closely with the ombudsman. When we speak of discrepancies, Mr. Chair, I don't know where that's focused at, because the comments made by the ombudsman did not focus on discrepancies across the country. They were targeted at a specific area, be it at Base Petawawa and Base Gagetown.

As for what we have in place across the country, if a man or woman in uniform is sick and needs help, they go to their local mental health clinic. We have those in place. They're called operational stress injury clinics, which are provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs and are integrated with our OTSSCs, which are operational stress injuries clinics that the Canadian Forces run. We have many across the country, and they're staffed with psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses, and addiction counsellors to provide that help.

In particular, we have just been recognized by the national Mental Health Commission and the senator on having a model that the rest of government, and perhaps the provinces, should follow in regard to what we have in place from a policy process and machinery point of view when it comes to mental health.

On the two issues of Petawawa and Gagetown, I'm fully aware of those two concerns. First, on the Gagetown piece, I can tell you that I spoke to my staff just last week, and the concerns in Gagetown of getting more staff there have actually improved since the ombudsman's report, which we do take very seriously and do address. With Petawawa, we actually now have a full-time major. I just recognized him last week for the great work he has done that is actually coming into play.

We know where the challenges are. We're not perfect. It's better than it was. We know what we need to do, but clearly we're going to do that hand in hand with the ombudsman.

The focus right now for me is a priority on Petawawa and Gagetown. Those are the two areas that I'm working on personally to make sure they're at that same standard. Part of the challenge with Petawawa--and I know you've heard it before--is getting people to Petawawa. At this point, we are busing mental health providers from Ottawa up to Petawawa.

A decision was made, not in the last four years but before that, not to put an operational stress injury clinic in Petawawa. In hindsight, it was probably a bad decision. What we see here today is that having an OSI clinic in Petawawa would have been the right thing to do. It was not done, but we're dealing with that issue to ensure the men and women in uniform get the support they need in Petawawa.

Thank you.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you. We're right on schedule.

It's over to two five-minute spots for the government, with Mr. Payne and then whoever wants to fill in.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will be sharing any time with my colleague Ms. Gallant.

First of all, gentlemen, I do want to tell you that in our riding we have Canadian Forces Base Suffield, in defence research, and it has obviously been extremely beneficial to the riding, as the research obviously has been very much so to the military.

The other comment I'd like to make is about how we've talked about unmanned vehicles. You may be aware that Medicine Hat is home to the administration for the Canadian Centre for Unmanned Vehicle Systems.

Having said that, I have a question. The minister talked about taking care of our injured soldiers and airmen. I'm just wondering if you can expound upon what the military is actually doing in that regard.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Mr. Chairman, as I'm sure you're aware, the Canadian Forces takes very seriously, as does the department, its men and women in uniform. In particular, as was raised, when men and women go into operations, they need to know that if they come back home injured, they'll get the support they so rightly and richly deserve from the government and the country. To that end, we've put a number of initiatives and programs in place to support them.

Firstly, we can tell you that last year the health system was told very clearly by the Chief of the Defence Staff that money will be no object when it comes to looking after men and women in uniform. That's not part of the supplemental issue here, if I can just add that, nor will it be. The issue is to look after those individuals. When you look at the Afghanistan mission, about 1,000 have been injured since 2001. Of that number, half are actually battle injuries and half are non-battle injuries. So we have in place for them both the physical and the mental health support they need, and the support that they and their families need as they go through recovery, rehabilitation, and reintegration.

I'd be more than happy to come back to the committee at some time in the future and lay that all out for you. We have, I would submit, world-class programs and policies in place to support the men and women in uniform.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead, Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You touched on an issue very near and dear to my heart, and that's families. In fact, the first time I met Vice-Admiral Rouleau was right before Christmas, just after Parliament recessed. Prime Minister Harper's first point of contact was with Base Petawawa, and together with the Canadian Christmas tree association, we handed out Christmas trees to the families of deployed soldiers.

Last week, a special ceremony was held at Base Petawawa to mark the opening of a family centre. It's to be a welcome centre for soldiers posted to Base Petawawa and to direct family members to available services on the base and in the community. It now houses crisis intervention workers and social workers from the Phoenix Centre and the Pembroke Regional Hospital.

Would you expand upon the ways we are looking after families at Base Petawawa and other Canadian Forces bases?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman, we in the military have a saying: we recruit an individual; we retain a family. And we assist families as our men and women move out if they need support from the Department of Veterans Affairs. We also know that today the role that families play is more important than it was in the past when it comes to keeping individuals in the military and having a direct impact on that final decision.

To that end, just last fall the Chief of the Defence Staff unveiled a family covenant. It is a public expression of our commitment to our families, acknowledging the great work they do for us. Families are operational enablers. They support the operational end. Many times we don't talk about it, we don't see it. So we have put out the family covenant.

We also have a program that covers a number of areas during deployments. We establish a deployment support group at every base and wing where our men and women in uniform go overseas. That deployment support group maintains contact with them, as we have in Petawawa. Indeed when I deployed to Afghanistan in 2005 out of Petawawa and commanded the rotation, we had a deployment support group in place to support families. So that's one small way we assist, and there are many others that I'd be more than happy to lay out for you.

We understand the importance of families. We just had a family summit where we brought in representatives from across the country to talk about the program. They're extremely happy with the program, with what is provided, the role they play, and our recognition of their importance in the Canadian Forces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, General.

Certainly when we were doing the quality of life study, we went out to some of the family resource centres in the country. The work they do is remarkable. Hopefully the supports that are needed will be supplied to them, because they do good things.

Mr. Blaney, you have just a few minutes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you very much.

I was lucky enough to meet Mr. Semianiw, and I would like to ask him a question. When we met previously, we talked about training being provided in French for soldiers, particularly at Borden.

Could you update us on what the Canadian Forces are doing to improve this situation and make sure that our francophone soldiers can get proper training in the language of their choice? Is there funding in the budget to ensure that you have the necessary financial resources for this?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As you know, there are challenges. There were challenges at Borden and on other bases. Today, I will speak only about the situation in Borden. Actually, there is a commander and a colonel on that base who report to me. Major General Gosselin commands the Canadian Defence Academy. So I am familiar with the specific details.

In this case, there were four challenges to overcome. First of all, we needed to have translation.

Since then, we have added hundreds of thousands of dollars to the translation program in Borden, which was the first challenge, to ensure that documents could be translated into French. The challenge becomes one of finding enough translation services to be able to translate so many documents, but we were committed to ensuring that that translation moved ahead and we provided the funds.

Secondly, we had to find an officer to deal with situations, problems and challenges having to do with the students. We have chosen one.

He is in place today as well. S'il y a des problèmes, des crises, our students know that there is someone they can go to outside of the chain of command, if that's their concern, to address their second language issues, concerns, and complaints. We have been working with the ombudsman on that issue in particular.

Le troisième aspect is to ensure that when the students arrive, they are aware of what their rights are when they come to the Canadian Forces. To be clear, many are new to the Canadian Forces, very young, and they may not understand what their rights are, as well as their obligations in many cases. So we lay that out very clearly for the students so they know exactly what they can get and what they should do.

We have been working hard to move more people into Borden. There are a number of issues. The first is having sufficient instructors.

We also need people on site who spoke French.

specifically those who provide the service. We have provided additional people in there.

Finally, we proudly say that we knew right from the beginning this was about leadership, ensuring that this was addressed by the leadership, not just moved off. At the time, Major-General Gosselin was on leave, and I spoke to him. He immediately went to Borden and actually sat down with the students at the time to ensure that they could speak to him

face to face. I too went to Borden.

twice afterwards just to make sure everything was in place, as was mentioned to me, because that was the concern raised by the ombudsman prior to that, Mr. Chair.

I think we're further ahead today than we were in the past. We are working closely with the ombudsman to do it better. We know what we'd like to do, and I believe we're heading in the right direction. Things are definitely better in Borden today than they were when we were here the last time, Mr. Chair.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

This gentleman speaks like a boy from Thetford Mines, Quebec, Monsieur Chairman.