National Defence Committee on Oct. 8th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

You'll have time to come back with other questions.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Can you respond on Kapyong?

[Robert Fonberg]

All I can say is we have the court decision and we are reviewing it. The court will determine the next steps. The decision did say that the duty to consult had not been satisfied, so we are trying to work our way through that.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

But you also know that the houses are not part of the first nations appeal. There are two different issues there.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Now I will have to give the floor to Mr. Braid.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Vice-Admiral, can I get it in writing if we don't get back to this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Can you give us the answer in writing?

[Vice-Admiral D. Rouleau, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence]

Yes. JSS is still an ongoing priority for us. In fact, this past July we had what we called a shipbuilding summit with Industry and discussed the requirements. JSS is moving in parallel with the results of that summit. In fact, Industry just returned to the four departments that were leading that summit with their returns in mid-September. So this is very fresh right now, and that project is still a priority for us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

Mr. Braid.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here this morning.

I have questions that touch on a number of different topics. I'll continue with the current thread of discussion on mental health services. First of all, congratulations on the tremendous work the Department of National Defence is doing in this very important area. Having worked in group benefits myself in the private sector, I recognize that this has taken a significant financial and resource commitment on the part of the department. You're clearly already making great progress in this area.

I recognize the great work that is being done within the department. Has any thought been given to how you might share the great work that's being done and effective treatments that are being completed, or best practices, beyond the department, in terms of effective mental health approaches for suicide prevention, for example? Has any thought been given to that as we move forward?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

There are two components to the question: the government aspect and the public aspect. I'll address the first. We work with other government departments, in particular the RCMP, and with Treasury Board to ensure that we pass on lessons learned so they can see what policies, programs, processes, and machinery we have in place. That's already done through a number of committees. More importantly, I sit on a committee with senior officials from the Department of Veterans Affairs to ensure that the two departments work together toward a common goal.

On the outside, that's a great question. We are part of the Mental Health Commission of Canada, so that ensures we're not only within the military and government; we're actually on the outside. Only last year I spoke in Toronto at an industrial accident prevention meeting that was purely private. We shared ideas and listened to what had to be said. So this is being done, both through committees and in discussions with members.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, sir.

I believe my next question will likely go to Vice-Admiral Rouleau. Could you please explain and touch on the relationship between the National Investigation Service and the chain of command within the Canadian Forces?

[VAdm D. Rouleau]

The NIS is a completely independent arm of the armed forces. In fact, they're part of the military police, but the training they get for the type of work they do is completely unique to their function. They have absolutely no linkages whatsoever to the Canadian Forces chain of command, even though the provost marshal, who is the head of the military police, works for the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff from an administrative perspective.

The NIS, which is also a part of the military police, does not report to me and is not responsive to me. For all I know, they could be investigating anybody sitting at this table here or wearing a uniform. I have no control over it and nobody in the chain of command has any linkages to the NIS as to what they do, what they report, and how they report it.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you for that clarification.

My next question is on the subject of Afghanistan. I started my week on Monday by meeting with representatives from a very capable NGO based in my riding, the Mennonite Economic Development Agency. They take very much a business approach to development. They're working in Afghanistan. They're administering a CIDA-funded micro-finance program. They spoke to me in very eloquent and positive terms about the progress they feel they're making in Afghanistan and the progress they're seeing in Afghanistan.

Could any you of gentlemen, from your perspective, touch on and put in your own words the progress you believe we're making in Afghanistan, particularly from development, governance, and human rights perspectives?

[VAdm D. Rouleau]

I guess the first element, when we talk about this specific aspect that you've just mentioned, is basically giving back to Afghans a means of prosperity and moving forward. Certainly when I was there, you look at the schools that are being built, you see the capacity being regenerated within their governance structure, not only at the national level but at the lower levels, and you see that their capacity from a national perspective is to have their own military forces so they can eventually take control of their country. Then you go down one more level and see that their capacity has been developed from a policing perspective, which enforces a lower level. This is being worked out at a municipal level, whether it's in Kandahar or Kabul or even in their village approach.

These are giant steps forward that have been made. To allow that to happen, they require security. They require basically an umbrella over all of this. Otherwise, it's impossible to do. Our work, which the minister was describing when it comes to the village approach, means basically getting close to the Afghans and showing them that we're there to protect them, that we're there to enable them to do every one of those items I mentioned so that they can go and do them on their own. That's the approach: not from a distance, but with them.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Braid.

I will now give the floor to Monsieur Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Vice-Admiral Rouleau concerning the comment he just made. We met with SNC-Lavalin officials this summer and we were very pleased to learn that a summit was being held. You just said that the position of the people concerned had shifted. You have the report in hand.

Do you intend to formulate a genuine policy for shipyards? The industry seems to be critical of the fact that every 20 or 25 years, they receive a large order—for instance, an order to build frigates—and because of the size of the order, often it is the companies like ThyssenKrupp or Northrop Grumman who benefit. At least that is my opinion.

I think I know what you want and I'd like you to confirm it for me. Would it not be better to build one ship every year for 25 years and renew the fleet gradually, so that Canadian shipyards benefit?

I also have a question for Mr. Fonberg.

Mr. Fonberg, I have heard many people decry the fact that the Air Force has been too heavily favoured. I do not want to upset General Deschamps, but many people believe that the Air Force has received far too much.

I would also like to talk to you about accrual accounting. People have explained to me that there is an end-support-service component to this. Right now, it seems we have reached a ceiling and cannot go any higher. I'd like you to confirm that for me, or tell me that we are on the wrong track. Apparently, there is almost no money available for a period of twenty years and some services like the Navy would be forced to plan for the longer term, for example, for thirty years, as we have just seen.

What do you say to your detractors who argue that accrual accounting is a bad thing and penalizes certain services while others gain?

I believe Mr. Bouchard has a question for General Deschamps.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for either the Deputy Minister or the generals. It concerns Bagotville's expeditionary squadron.

In 2008, the Minister of Defence announced that the expeditionary wing would be operational in 2010 and would be comprised of 250 CF members. According to a recent release, the minister is hoping that 60 CF members will be deployed to this unit by the end of 2009.

According to the 2009-2014 five-year plan for CFB Bagotville, 60% of investments will go toward the squadron's infrastructure budget. Provision for the other 40% will be made in phase 2 of the five-year plan, which means that DND is giving itself until 2019 to build the infrastructure for this new elite corps.

How does DND intend to keep the commitment it made to the public that 250 CF members would be deployed to this unit in 2010, with an additional 550 CF members and 100 civilians assigned to it in 2015?

Can DND provide us with a detailed plan of the physical implementation of Bagotville's expeditionary squadron and clarify exactly how many members will be deployed to the unit each year? Could he also provide a detailed outline of expenditures and provide us with a timetable for implementation?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

We have a minute and a half left. Therefore, I would ask Vice-Admiral Rouleau to respond to the questions. If the other witnesses do not have time to respond, they can always submit their answers in writing to the committee.

Go ahead, Vice-Admiral Rouleau.

[VAdm D. Rouleau]

Alright.

The first question concerned shipbuilding in Canada and the plan to bring together shipbuilding in Canada.

The summit held last July was the first ever of its kind in Canada. It did not result in a report as such. All of the industry people who attended this summit and took part in the discussions over the course of two days had until the middle of September to submit their ideas, suggestions and opinions on various subjects. We are pouring over all of the material received, not merely from a defence standpoint, but also from the perspective of the other three departments that attended the summit—as you know, four departments participated— to see how these can help us undertake the work that needs to be done over the next 20 or 25 years.

[Robert Fonberg]

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

On the question of whether the air force has too much funding, that's a trick question.

I'll deal with accrual accounting.

As we went through the Canada First defence strategy on the modernization of all of the major fleets, I think the general view was that the army, navy, and air force came out exactly where they needed to come out after a very strong and tough internal discussion, and then a discussion that we had, obviously, with our political masters over a number of months.

Accrual accounting is simply the recognition that long-lived assets ought to be matched up with the rate of consumption of those assets, so you fund them over time. What we record as an expenditure, year after year, on a 40-year asset, for example, for the navy, $26 billion for frigates, is on the order of $60 million or $70 million per year because that is what it costs you to actually run that piece of equipment. The notion that we would build the fleet over whatever it will be, a 10-year period, and expense the whole thing makes no sense from an accounting perspective. Accrual accounting simply reflects that for a long-lived asset, you need to have a way to account for it that fits with the actual life.

Going forward, all of our major fleets will be expensed on an accrual basis, including the aviation assets that we're buying, as well as the naval assets, and in fact the army assets that we're buying.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

We don't have enough time for the other answers.

I will give the floor to Madam Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and through you, to our witnesses.

For soldiers who are eligible to renew their contracts but choose not to, does the practice of obtaining the reasons for declining the renewal exist?

[Mgén W. Semianiw]

Thank you for your question. The answer is yes.

We conduct exit surveys to confirm why personnel are leaving. The results are incorporated into our retention strategy, which is designed to determine why people we don't want to leave are leaving. We do this as part of our exit strategy.