Evidence of meeting #7 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was north.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Policy Development, Assistant Deputy Minister - Policy, Department of National Defence
I think the training centre will have some staff there during the time when there is training or when the Canadian Forces are going to have students and units up there for Arctic training. I'm not sure the army is intending to have people there 12 months out of the year, though.
Cmdre D. Gardam
We're sharing that facility with the Northern Research Institute organization, so we get it for a period of time when they are not using the facility. Right now we use it on a periodic basis. We're still developing the concept of operations for the Arctic training, and that's a work in progress, so we'll see where it goes.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
You talked about being in cooperation, so I'm assuming that at centres like PEARL, the Arctic scientists are a big help in sovereignty. You're 1,500 kilometres north of the Arctic Circle, at one of our northernmost sites. I assume that's part of the network of things that you would agree helps ensure our sovereignty in that area.
Director, Policy Development, Assistant Deputy Minister - Policy, Department of National Defence
In terms of the science?
Director, Policy Development, Assistant Deputy Minister - Policy, Department of National Defence
Oh yes, yes. And we provide support as well to some scientific operations, as required.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
It's too bad they're going to close that centre.
I think Ms. Gallant asked a good question about submarines. They're not covered by NORDREG, I assume, so they don't have to list that they're coming. I'm just wondering what the deal is with non-NATO submarines. Do we track them? Do we know they're there, do they have to ask permission, etc.?
Cmdre D. Gardam
The deal with non-NATO submarines is that they'll travel where they want to and they will operate, and if they are detected, we indicate so. But they do not participate in the same processes as our allies do.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
So considering we consider them to be Canadian inland waters, what would we do if a non-NATO submarine was in our inland waters?
Cmdre D. Gardam
As for the issue of a submarine being in Canadian internal waters, if an incident occurs—and this is a question best answered, actually, by the commander of Canada Command—the way we would probably find it is by visual detection of a conning tower coming up, most likely, and we would then send out a team to investigate. That's the reaction we would follow, and then we'd see if we could determine if it was an ally or not.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Do you not do UAV tests over Baffin Island, after Ms. Gallant's good question?
Cmdre D. Gardam
DRDC has been doing some work through Northern Watch, their TDP, which has been dealing with gaps in the north. But I'm not aware if they've been flying UAVs or not.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you.
Submarines seem to be popular this afternoon. At one point, there were plans to equip Canadian submarines with air-independent propulsion systems, which would enable them to go under the ice cap. Given that we are part of a group of submarines, the Americans make sure we know they are there because they want to avoid any risk of collision, as occurred between the French and British submarines. If a submarine wanted to get away by passing under the ice cap once it was detected, no Canadian submarine could pursue it because it does not have this air-independent propulsion system.
Does the department plan on equipping one or two submarines with this system?
Cmdre D. Gardam
The Victoria class submarines right now are going through their final equipping, which is making them fully operational. It has been a process to take the U.K. boat and convert it to Canadian standards and Canadian procedures.
There has been discussion of air-independent propulsion as an option, but it is currently not something that is being actively sought.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I am now going to speak to you about NORAD. We know that this command does not see solely to air space; it has also developed a new mission for maritime approaches. I have the impression that it will have a role to play in this type of approach. In my opinion, anything connected to satellites will have to go through NORAD. Air traffic above Canadian territory in the Arctic should normally be overseen by NORAD.
The North Warning System is controlled by NORAD. Will the data sent to NORAD first transit throught Winnipeg?
Cmdre D. Gardam
NORAD has a new mandate, which is maritime warning, which was included in the last round of negotiations. And I suspect the Canada-U.S. binational command is going to continue to work on maritime domain awareness in the north. That is something we can potentially explore.
With regard to radars and information passing and where we see the information, information is passed through the NORAD early warning system. It is passed to Colorado Springs, and we have that information also in Canada. It passes seamlessly through Canada and the United States. Because this is a binational command, it's neither Canadian nor American; it's both. And that's key. The deputy commander of NORAD is a Canadian.
Certainly the way we have been passing and exchanging information is not going to change as NORAD progresses down the road of looking at maritime domain awareness. In fact, if anything, it will increase.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I've heard that certain generals don't like data leaving Canada and being sent directly to NORAD. There is a type of filter in Winnipeg that also comes under NORAD operations.
Before being sent to NORAD, does the data collected by satellite or by other means transit through Winnipeg, to ensure that there is some kind of Canadian control over this data?
Cmdre D. Gardam
I'm not an expert in NORAD, so I really can't get into the detail of where the zeros and ones go.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
With respect to that last question, the information is available to Winnipeg, to Colorado Springs, to everybody in the NORAD system. They can pick off the information they want. It doesn't have to go through any filters to get to anywhere. The information is out there to all those organizations.
To clear up something that maybe I misunderstood, carrying on with Mr. Bagnell's point, am I correct in saying that there is no policy that gives blanket authority to the navy to dump the kind of material we're talking about?
Cmdre D. Gardam
If there is, I'm not aware of it. I know the incident we were speaking about. There may have been a change in policy that says that it is now approved for these types of missions. I don't know the answer to that.
