National Defence Committee on June 17th, 2010

[MGen Lewis MacKenzie]

I think in Canada we've come a long way--that's because we had a long way to come--by way of coordination between the agencies in this town when we're fighting a war overseas. It took a while, but it's certainly a heck of a lot better now.

With regard to utilizing regional forces, I have to say that worldwide the potential is there--I remember writing on it 20 years ago--for some of these regional forces. In Africa it's particularly challenging because of the tension between the countries that are contributing forces to that common chain of command. Funnily enough, some nation like Canada would have a lot to contribute by way of command and control, being seen as somewhat neutral and with a fairly decent international reputation, to give guidance.

As you know, we have about 35 or 37 officers right now in the Congo and in southern Sudan doing just that, being invaluable in the operations of organization headquarters.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Is using sherpas dead, or is there a possibility of actually getting sherpas--using, say, Gurkhas, who are unemployed right now but are fine soldiers--as a standing high-readiness brigade, not only for military operations but also to insert in humanitarian situations?

[MGen Lewis MacKenzie]

Yes, but those five members of the Security Council have to agree to do that. That's always the challenge, getting the authorization to launch that force and then to pay for it. Normally...

You know, two days after we arrived in UNPROFOR, we were told we had a 25% budget cut. We hadn't even received any money yet, but it was cut already.

So money is a problem, but I say the decision-making in the Security Council is an even bigger challenge. I mean, witness Darfur; my God, we've sat on our hands now for eight years.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I'm wondering if you could actually hive off those that are “military ops” versus “humanitarian ops”, and humanitarian ops could be authorized by the full complement of the Security Council. There would be no veto power, so two-thirds majority on the Security Council and no veto power applied to humanitarian ops versus military ops.

Would that...?

[MGen Lewis MacKenzie]

Yes; they'll play with the term like we're playing with “peace ops”. You're absolutely right that it would be a way to sneak it through, perhaps, but then you'd have to find nations willing to contribute.

I've always been sort of critical of a standing UN army, a rapid-reaction army. It would never, ever work. Why? First of all, the Security Council would never let the Secretary-General have his or her own army. Secondly, they'd only be rapid once. They'd go into the mission there and there'd be nobody to replace them, so they'd hang in there.

It sounds good on paper, but it won't work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Now I'll give the floor to Mrs. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and through you to our witness.

You mentioned the length of time it takes for procurement. From time to time with major purchases, this government has found it expedient to do some sole-source purchases.

From the soldier's standpoint, and taking into consideration interoperability with our allies, what difference does it make to the soldier in the field to have equipment that may have been procured through a sole-source process versus the other tendering processes?

[MGen Lewis MacKenzie]

They couldn't care less when they actually talk about it, if they ever do. It's faster. Mind you, it should be faster. Then there are always claims against the process, which delay it once again. So I'm not sure in a foot race whether sole sourcing is actually faster. Sometimes it is; sometimes it's not. But it couldn't matter less, as long as the kit that is received is good kit. It doesn't have to be the best in the world. That's really slow.

But it's good kit, as has been witnessed with some of the purchases in Afghanistan. In fact we bought some that weren't working terribly well and they were replaced. I'm talking about some of wheeled vehicle fleet.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

There has been a suggestion that Canada should go back to having its own procurement process within the defence department. In your experience, would that speed up procurement?

[MGen Lewis MacKenzie]

Well, I didn't set a Guinness record. I only did one year in Ottawa in my entire career and that was in the personnel world. I'm not an expert, but I do know when I was running the personnel world for officers in 1985, we had a phenomenal demand for personnel at the captain-major level to run these projects, to manage these projects. When we used to buy a tank, there was a colonel, a sergeant-major, and a corporal. Now you can fill a theatre with the number of people on the procurement team.

So yes, that would be desirable, but there's a personnel cost that comes with it. There's a whole bunch of folks who should be out kicking ass in the field who are going to be manning offices here in Ottawa.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Earlier you mentioned the Somalia mission, and there have been murmurings amongst the opposition as to perhaps revisiting that area of operation. Can you tell us why the Somalia inquiry was cut short and what the outcome might have been?

[MGen Lewis MacKenzie]

Well, I think it's generally accepted that it was getting close to here, the Ottawa city limits. It was no longer looking at Somalia. It was looking at what happened in some of the buildings around here and over there, and therefore it was shut down. It had gone on for a long time, no doubt about it. But what was frustrating for me... I was even included in a setup when I was a witness. I started to talk about General Johnston, saying “best force there”. General Zinni, who was world famous then, was saying the same thing about the Canadians. I was stopped—and I had been warned I would be—and they said, “General MacKenzie, that will be permitted in phase four of the Somalia inquiry, when we get to the good news at the end.” We never got to the good news.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

If we could look at your entire military career and distill it to the single most important lesson learned, what would you like to convey to Canadians?

[MGen Lewis MacKenzie]

Boy oh boy, that's... I'd say large units, yes, adequately sized units in all three environments. Units bring along kit too, but adequately sized battalions and regiments, and squadrons in the air force, and ships at sea with their crews, adequately manned and equipped.

During my career, I've seen that go down. I'm pleased now to see it's getting a bit better in some areas, since I left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Merci beaucoup. Thank you very much.

Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask a point of clarification, through you, to Ms. Gallant. Since I know it wasn't our party, which party suggested revisiting Somalia?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

It was during a discussion in this room.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Well, it wasn't us. I just want to put that on the record.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I don't recall, Mr. Wilfert.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Okay. It was not the Liberal Party of Canada.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

We just want to put that on the record. I want you to know that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much, General.

Thank you very much for being with us this morning, and have a nice summer.

That concludes the 22nd meeting of the committee.

The meeting is adjourned.