National Defence Committee on March 18th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to the third meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), we are going to study the supplementary estimates (C) 2009-2010: Votes 1c and 5 under “National Defence”, referred to the committee on Wednesday, March 3, 2010.

It is an honour to have with us the Minister of National Defence, the Hon. Peter MacKay.

Before starting our session, I will ask all the members to use their time in an efficient manner. I will manage your time very strictly. I want to be fair to each member to be sure that everyone has time to ask their questions. So if you are too long with your questions, members, I will interrupt you and ask you to be more precise.

The same thing goes for the minister.

It is a privilege for us to welcome you here. You have 12 minutes to make your presentation, which I am looking forward to very much. Thank you for being with us and welcome to our committee. The floor is yours.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and my esteemed colleagues.

This is my seventh appearance before your committee. The first two were as Minister of Foreign Affairs and the subsequent appearances were as Minister of National Defence. It is a pleasure to be back.

This time, I am happy to be accompanied by Mr. Robert Fonberg, Deputy Minister at DND; Mr. William F. Pentney, Associate Deputy Minister at DND; Vice-Admiral Denis Rouleau, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff; Mr. Kevin Lindsey, Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance and Corporate Services, at DND; and by Mr. David Jacobson, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, at DND.

I am pleased to be here to talk about the supplementary estimates because I know how important your work is in ensuring that Canadian taxpayers get good value for their money.

A great deal of thought and planning go into preparing our initial yearly funding requirements through the main estimates. However, the world in which the Canadian Forces operate is uncertain and unpredictable. We plan, but we must remain flexible in delivering on our mandate.

National Defence has been extremely busy since supplementary estimates (B) were discussed in December. We have gone about our important duties both at home and abroad. But in addition to those responsibilities, we have also undertaken some special tasks over the last few months. Their costs—and other unforeseen financial requirements—are the subject matter that I am here to discuss with you today.

Let me touch on the highlights.

As everyone here knows, last month Canada hosted a very successful Winter Olympic Games in Vancouver and Whistler, B.C. People from around the world came to watch competitors and they witnessed the amazing accomplishments of top athletes who performed spectacularly. It was a great source of pride for our country.

What a lot of people wouldn't know and didn't see was how the Canadian Forces worked to support the RCMP, the Vancouver municipal police, and other partners at the federal, provincial, and municipal levels to make sure that everything happened at the Olympics in a safe and secure manner. The cost of the National Defence contributions to security at the Olympics, and at the Paralympics, which are currently under way, requires supplementary estimates of $17.4 million.

Canadians and our guests from many, many countries have also been able to safely enjoy the spectacular Winter Olympics and the Paralympic Games, and they've thanked us for them. In just one reference, NBC's Brian Williams--not the Canadian broadcaster, but an American broadcaster by the same name--said it best when he stated, “Thank you, Canada....For securing this massive event without choking security, and without publicly displaying a single automatic weapon”.

Our Canadian Forces, like our Olympians, train year-round. They spent a great deal of time extensively away from their families in preparation for these games. They wear a Canadian uniform and a flag on their shoulders. They're proud and they're patriotic. Indeed, we have a lot to be proud of when it comes to their extraordinary public service.

This summer as well, Canada will be in the spotlight again as we host two major international conferences, the G8 and G20 summits in Toronto and in Muskoka. As with the Olympics, the Canadian Forces will again be working alongside the RCMP and other government departments and agencies as part of an integrated security unit. The $11.7 million we've requested for this fiscal year will help us prepare for those two summits that take place this summer.

I'd like to conclude my remarks, Mr. Chair and colleagues, by discussing another place near and dear to the hearts of Canadians, and that, of course, is Haiti. As we speak, the Canadian Forces are wrapping up our military contribution to the Government of Canada's whole-of-government response to the earthquake in Haiti. When the earthquake hit, the Government of Canada was ready to respond in record time, as were the Canadian Forces.

Our response was rapid and effective. The day after the quake, we had boots on the ground within 20 hours. Within two weeks, we had a full task force of 2,000 people up and running. It included seven helicopters, two Canadian battleships, a field hospital, firefighters, search and rescue technicians, and, of course, the Disaster Assistance Response Team.

Our forces have performed their mission and are now returning home after setting the stage for our partners in civilian and non-governmental organizations to now take up the task with the long-term reconstruction of Haiti. We are now seeking $62.3 million in supplementary estimates (C) for this unforeseen and un-budgeted event.

In conclusion, the Canadian Forces have demonstrated time and time again their flexibility, versatility, and capability to respond to a whole array of events. In addition to security at the Olympics and Paralympics, and the Haiti mission that we mentioned, of course, we have another major mission in Afghanistan and the train-up for that ongoing responsibility of the important NATO-led, UN-mandated mission in Afghanistan.

What the Canadian Forces do and continue to do is keep Canadians safe and bring credit to our nation through their dedication and resolve and through their skill. The government recognizes them for their excellence, and we are working hard to give them the support and the equipment they need.

At the same time, we plan and we do our very best, our level best, to use taxpayers' dollars responsibly, by careful planning. And with careful planning, as important as it is, we cannot always account for every circumstance. As I mentioned, we need to be flexible enough to make the adjustments so that the Canadian Forces will have the tools and the means they need to do the important work that we ask of them.

With that, I'll conclude my remarks. Merci. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Now we begin the questions from the members of the committee. Before we start, I would like to remind you that the minister will be with us until 12:00 noon and that we are studying the votes in the supplementary estimates (C) 2009-2010. In order for the discussion to be helpful, I invite members of the committee to confine their questions to matters of a budgetary nature. For the first round, each member of the committee will have 10 minutes. Mr. Dosanjh, from the Liberal Party, has the floor. I understand that you will be sharing your time with Mr. Wilfert.

Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Minister, you mentioned our mission in Afghanistan. I noticed that in the budget there has been a reduction of funding to the Military Police Complaints Commission. We noticed that no chair has been appointed. The interim chair has now appointed himself to proceed with the hearings.

Based on the history of that situation, the fact is that this particular institution has been impeded by various departments—at least that's my view. Why is there this reduction in funding? Why is there no new chair, and why is it not being done quickly?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I disagree with your assessment that they have been impeded. In fact, we've cooperated in providing them documents and witnesses.

The positions or the reductions that you're referring to were made in consultation with the previous chair, Mr. Tinsley, who I think you're familiar with. His position, of course, came to an expiration. He will be replaced by an existing member of the board, and the Military Police Complaints Commission will begin its deliberations again within days, I'm led to believe, if not weeks.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

My understanding is that the new chair you're talking about has no legal training--not that it has always been a bar to these issues, but these are very complex issues. Then you have a battery of lawyers present from the Department of Justice, which has been, I would say, obstructing; your view is different.

In terms of the detainee concerns emerging from the Military Police Complaints Commission and then actually spreading all over in terms of our mission in Afghanistan, you said back in November 2009:

I'm not suggesting that we have not heard serious allegations from the moment we took office.

You were referring to serious allegations of torture.

General Natynczyk, after he was reminded that he may have misspoken about a particular incident, went back and checked to verify whether he had testified appropriately and correctly before this committee.

Have you ever had the thought of going back over documents for the last four or five years in your own departments, and your department currently, to look at the traffic in terms of this issue? And if you haven't, why not?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Dosanjh, to quote yourself with respect to the issue of transfer arrangements, going back to a debate in the House on April 10, 2006, you spoke regarding the 2005 transfer arrangement, which your government put in place. There are in fact 12 members of your government currently who were part of that government when the transfer arrangement in 2005 was first put in place. Your government, of course, was in office for four years when the Afghan mission began.

This is what you had to say about that 2005 transfer arrangement:

I have had an opportunity to look at the agreement. I agree that it is an important agreement and it is one that is quite good in many respects.

You went on to talk about the supervision of the Red Cross, and Red Crescent, society as an independent party, about the fact that it's very important because they can follow the prisoners and ensure that they're treated well and appropriately in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

So I would invite you to do the same; I have in fact looked at many of the documents various times. I've looked at the transfer agreements, both the previous one and the one that our government put in place in May 2007 as a result of inadequacies that were discovered, concerns over monitoring in particular, which you spoke to in the House of Commons.

As well, I would remind you that senior diplomats have also testified, people such as David Mulroney, and members of the military who would have had first-hand knowledge of the conditions then and the ongoing evolution of conditions.

You're right to suggest that there were circumstances in Afghanistan that we were concerned about, both inside and outside prisons, and we've made substantial investments to try to improve the human rights conditions in both environments.

Obviously now we have a more robust agreement that allows for greater access, regular and unannounced visits to prisons. In fact, I think you'll find that there have been over 210 visits, one as recently as 10 days ago, that allowed for Canadian officials from the public safety department or the Department of Foreign Affairs to be inside Afghan detention facilities—an eyes-on, first-hand ability to monitor Canadian-transferred Taliban prisoners. In fact, it's primarily our focus.

Yes, we have received general concerns expressed in reports and through various channels about conditions, but our primary responsibility, I remind you, sir, is prisoners who were captured by Canadian Forces--many in the aftermath of a battle, or tested for explosive residue on their clothing or hands--and then turned over to Afghan officials.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Minister.

You still have five minutes, and you want to share your time, Mr. Dosanjh--

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I have a very brief question.

Minister, you may have seen the comments of General McChrystal. He has made the special forces directly accountable to him. Can you shed any light on the command structure of the special forces? Who do they report to?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

They report to the Chief of the Defence Staff.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Do those reports ever come to the minister?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

What reports?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Any reports from special forces; do you ever see them?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I see some reports, but we generally don't discuss the reports of the Canadian special forces.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm not asking you to discuss them; I'm simply asking.

General McChrystal has actually restructured the reporting because he is worried about extra-judicial killings in the context of their operations.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That may be your interpretation.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's in fact reported in the newspapers.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, therefore it has to be true.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Sometimes it is. When the governments don't give you the correct information, then you have to base your allegations or views on what you hear. If you want us to hear the truth, perhaps you should tell us whether or not there have been similar concerns on the part of the Canadians.

General McChrystal is alleged to have done this, based on his fear that they were out of control.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Again, that's your assessment of someone else's assessment, but as I indicated, we do not discuss special forces at public committees.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm simply asking if you have restructured the reporting.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

No, I have not restructured the reporting.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

I will have to give the floor to Mr. Wilfert.

You have only two minutes and 30 seconds.