National Defence Committee on March 18th, 2010

[David Jacobson, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, the contract for the Leopard 2s has not yet been awarded. It is currently in the bidding process. The responses to that request for proposals are expected by April 15.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll give the floor to Mr. Braid.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here this afternoon.

I wanted to pursue two topics. First of all, I wanted to come back to Haiti quickly, and then move to the upcoming G8 and G20.

With respect to our very successful and effective response to the tragic earthquake situation in Haiti, I wonder if you could perhaps elaborate and explain how earlier decisions to make specific investments in equipment and in our Canadian Forces have contributed to the very effective response that we saw from this government, from our Canadian Forces, both with respect to its rapidity and its coordinated fashion.

[VAdm Denis Rouleau]

First of all, as I mentioned earlier, immediately the next day, we actually had an aircraft on the tarmac in Port-au-Prince. The only way we could actually maintain the air bridge, which we have been maintaining with Haiti for the entire duration, was with the capability of the C-17 Globemasters that we have right now. They have been operating continuously from Trenton to Port-au-Prince. That is how we got the large majority of our equipment down there. Then, we actually used our container ship, which took some of the heavier material. At the end of the day, we were even able to bring helicopters on board the C-17 and fly them down to Haiti. As well, some of them flew there themselves in pairs to go join the effort down there.

The equipment that our army actually used in Afghanistan, the new trucks that we had, which were part of SQFT, and all of this were part of the new equipment that was in their hands and able to be deployed. The enhanced DART equipment that was there as well is part of this continuous improvement in our equipment. That was there and available, despite our commitment in Afghanistan, despite our commitment for Podium, and despite the fact that we have an entire brigade, which will be the next rotation in Afghanistan, training down in the States.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Very good.

I would very quickly, with the indulgence of the committee, like to share an anecdote.

Some constituents in my riding of Kitchener—Waterloo, a group of 10 people from a church, were in Haiti. They arrived about a week before the earthquake. Obviously, when they went to the country, they had no idea what was in store for them as the earthquake unfolded. With the assistance of Foreign Affairs officials and Canadian Forces personnel, they were successfully evacuated out of Haiti. I know that they are eternally grateful, so, on their behalf, I thank you.

Moving on to the upcoming G-8 and G-20, I note in the supplementary estimates (C) that there's $11.7 million devoted to security operations and policing for the upcoming G8 and the G20. Could you please--through you, Mr. Chair--elaborate on what the role of the Canadian Forces will be in terms of providing security at those two important international meetings, and perhaps explain what some of those expenses are, and what the money will be used for.

[William F. Pentney]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chair, the role of the Canadian Forces in G8 and G20 will derive from the model that was used for the Olympics. The RCMP will have the lead as the lead federal police force. As chair of the G8 and the G20, Canada has an obligation to provide those international leaders with adequate security protection. That's something we take very seriously.

The Canadian Forces will be in support for G8 as they were for the Olympics. I would say the Mounties and the other police forces get the glory role and more visibility. The Canadian Forces will be in the bush around the site, providing perimeter security.

There will be about 2,500, give or take, Canadian Forces personnel deployed. Their role is largely perimeter security, providing the kinds of capabilities that the army, through the reservists and the regular force members, can provide.

Second will be air security. We're part of the North American Aerospace Defense Command, so through NORAD, which is a joint command, we will provide air security to create a bubble over that event, and we will provide certain specialized capabilities. In particular I'd note chemical, biological, and radiological. If there were ever to be such an event, the Canadian Forces have unique and specialized capabilities, which is part of a whole-of-government plan. We would deploy first into that zone.

So we'll be, again, in a supporting role. It will be largely hidden. They promise me that where the mosquitoes are, that's where the army will go. It will be to provide both personnel to provide that perimeter security and some specialized capabilities, in the air and on the land, to provide whatever security is necessary.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

No.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

We'll have time for Mr. Wilfert, for five minutes.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I return to a subject I raised before, and that is the issue of military procurement and how we go about it. I'm not asking a political question; this question is really for the government, but I'm interested in your response, particularly the Deputy Minister, with regard to the CADSI report that came out and that identified a number of concerns in terms of how we go about procuring military equipment and the cost of doing it the way we are presently, particularly in terms of the effect on the domestic economy. There were concerns, and I've raised this before, Deputy Minister, in terms of the shortage of project managers. I'd like to know where we are on that.

There have been concerns there may be turf wars between the Prime Minister's Office, Privy Council, Foreign Affairs, Finance, etc., in terms of going about it. One of the major recommendations I was struck by was the creation of a defence industrial strategy to improve the overall governance of the procurement process, so that in fact many of the issues that colleagues have raised could be addressed maybe more efficiently.

I'd be interested in your comments, through the chair.

[Robert Fonberg]

Thank you for the question.

I might actually just turn to Mr. Jacobson on the question of project managers in particular.

The CADSI report, as I read it, has really three critical recommendations in it. One is around this notion I think you've just raised of a defence industrial policy. The second one is really around streamlining the existing process, given the variety and number of players in the process. The third one, which I think is certainly beyond my pay grade, is the question of machinery and the issue of a single cabinet-level person. I'm sure you're very familiar with the report.

On the question of the industrial policy, I think that CADSI, and we've worked with them very closely, has identified a huge opportunity. The Canada First defence strategy lays out probably about $240 billion worth of procurement over the next 20 years.

Somebody earlier asked the question about the clarity of the forward investment trajectory. Our ability to lay out with greater certainty and clarity what procurements are coming at what time; our ability to work with early-stage Canadian companies in the R and D and the S and T areas that will allow them to get ready for larger procurements as they come up for bidding three, four, and five years out; our ability to partner with others in supply chain opportunities--we've looked at all of that quite closely. I think we're ready to start having a very serious, deliberate discussion about a kind of defence industrial policy.

It doesn't always have the greatest ring to it, a defence industrial policy, but it's fundamentally about an opportunity to strengthen the Canadian supply base. We're fully on board with CADSI around that issue. To be honest, I think we can take their issue a little bit further.

On the question of streamlining--and then I'll turn to Jake Jacobson quickly on the issue of project managers, because it's an important question--it's a complex process. I accept that. I think we all accept it's a complex process. The accountabilities are the accountabilities. In my two and a half years on the job, I haven't seen anything that I would kind of call turf in any way. We have exceptionally strong relationships with our Public Works colleagues, with our Treasury Board colleagues.

You know, sometimes it's a little bit hard; the Privy Council Office has a lot of stuff flowing through it into the decision-making process. Sometimes it's a little bit hard to get their attention, but we get their attention when we need it. But I wouldn't say that we have had anything held up around something called turf.

There are a lot of questions out there. These are big projects for Canada. These are often projects where you're procuring stuff that has a life of 20 years, or 30 or 40 years. I think if we miss by a year in order to get it right, that's probably a year's worth of thinking and designing that's worth that particular time.

On machinery, there are different models. In fact, Jake's predecessor as the ADM Materiel has written a book on machinery options, always the purview of the Prime Minister. I think every model out there has its benefits and its costs. We work with what we have, and I would say we probably do an exceptionally good job.

Jake, I don't know if you want to say something about project managers.

[David Jacobson]

Yes, please. Thank you, Deputy.

Mr. Chair, you've heard the expression that it takes 20 years to develop a 20-year sergeant, and the same is true for project managers. We've made some great strides. That said, we've made some great strides in the last three years in particular in improving the capacity of not just our project managers but also of our engineering and procurement officers. In fact, in the last couple of years we've increased the number of engineers by about 57% and the number of procurement officials by over 50%.

On the issue of project managers themselves, we've been working to identify the competencies they need. What knowledge set do they need? What kind of experience should they develop through the course of their careers? What kind of management and leadership abilities should we develop?

We establish those competencies and apply the learning and training strategies. Also, because not everybody makes a great project manager, succession management is quite active within the group; we identify those people with the right kinds of aptitudes and background, and we develop those people fully. We can develop people from the $10 million projects through to the $50 million projects to the $100 million projects and the $1 billion projects. It's a very good question.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you for those answers.

My final comment, Mr. Chairman, is that I'm obviously concerned; I don't want to see our defence industrial base decline to the point that we're dependent on foreign acquisitions. I take some comfort from some of your comments. Obviously this is going to be a political decision, but I commend at least the three ministers for initiating it. Obviously, we'll be following up on it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

I will give the floor to Ms. Gallant for five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We've been discussing the wonderful job our forces have done in Haiti and at the Olympics. Even though we didn't see them, we know they did their job and did it well. We've been discussing the progress they're making in Afghanistan and the plans for security at the G8 and G20. We talked about equipment procurement as well as the equipment coming home from Afghanistan.

What I'm interested in is the people aspect, in terms of the people coming home from Afghanistan and the people who've been home from Afghanistan. Perhaps this question is best directed towards General Semianiw.

In particular I would like to know what sorts of resources the estimates are providing for the joint personnel support units. Could you walk us through the process from the point when they first come into the life of a soldier who is returning injured from a deployment or who may have been injured on previous deployments? How do the JPSUs help them get back into their roles as soldiers?

[Major-General W. Semianiw, Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am sorry, but we will need about 25 minutes to answer the questions.

I think there are two aspects to the question: first is the coming home, and second is once you are home.

Mr. Chair, just let me again ensure that committee members know that we have many programs, many policies, many structures in place to ensure that prior to being deployed, men and women in uniform actually are screened--I use the word in a positive way--to ensure they are fit to be deployed.

That's done in a number of different ways, both from a military training sense and from a people sense to ensure they're healthy and they're fit, as well as to sit down with their families to ensure their families are prepared for that time, because it is tough on families. We know that much. You and I have talked about that. So that does happen.

They actually also have some degree of psychological screening before they go in. Once they are in theatre, what has been added is mental health teams that are now in theatre to support them. And again, they do their work, they come home on their leave for a couple of weeks, they head back into theatre, and then the time comes for them to come back. I think that's where the question actually really begins.

Prior to coming back, the screening actually begins once again in a very intensive sense. The chain of command and the medical teams actually ensure that those who have had challenges in whatever way, be it physically or mentally throughout that deployment, are actually screened, and that it is noted. The key is to ensure there is a link between when that soldier, sailor, airman, or airwoman leaves that operation and is actually back home. You are moving back to someone who owns you differently from when you are in theatre. So there is a possibility that someone perhaps could fall through the cracks. We've talked about that in the past.

To ensure that doesn't happen, medical records are updated in theatre and they actually come back to Canada, back to that soldier's location. Let's say perchance it is in Petawawa. They would actually come back to Petawawa, and what happens from a mental health point of view is that mental health screening does occur once they are back home.

Secondly, we have added this. Prior to getting back on the ground in Canada, soldiers, sailors, airmen, and airwomen, as part of the Afghanistan mission on the ground, actually go back and do a third location decompression in Cyprus, where they go through a number of briefings, with presentations on family reunions. It is a challenge coming back. You still think you're in control when you're overseas, but you're really not. It's your spouse at home who is really in charge.

So what does it really mean coming back? We never did this in the past, but we knew we had to do that, so that's in place now.

When you're back on ground, we have psychological screening. The chain of command actually works with you.

The other thing we have added is this. To all of our general practitioners across the Canadian Forces, we've demanded of them and hold them responsible and accountable now to actually do psychological questioning whenever anybody comes in. So perchance if I were in Petawawa and I'm not feeling good when I wake up one Sunday, it actually would go to my medical clinic in Petawawa. My doctor would then determine what it is, whether it is a physical or mental health issue, and focus on the mental health issue because I think that's where the question really comes from. I could then be referred to either the OSI clinic that we just put in recently across the country--we've added a number of operational stress injury clinics for PTSD--or be given any other type of support.

Once it is determined that you need a certain level of support, you are then moved on to the JPSUs or IPSCs. The JPSUs and IPSCs, I'm proud to say, are the only units in the Canadian Forces whose sole task is to look after injured and ill men and women in uniform. That's all they do. They work. We have members from the Department of Veterans Affairs in the JPSUs and IPSCs and we also have return-to-work coordinators. We have teams that will actually help soldiers if they want to improve during that rehabilitation time, recovery time. For their education, be it college or university, we're about to put in a small university component into that program. They actually stay in the JPSU until they get to that point medically where they can head back to the unit or we have to determine what else happens with them.

Clearly I would expect all Canadians would expect men and women in uniform--Haiti is a great example--to be prepared to deploy when they are asked to deploy. That becomes a fundamental issue. But at the same time we must ensure that we as a leadership, we as Canadians, this nation, provide a support to the men and women who have given so much for the nation. So the JPSUs were put in place for that. You've seen it. You've been to it. I went there with you to take a look at it not too long ago. It looks after them and it provides a whole suite. For example, it touched on the educational support that they need, be it college or university.

Secondly, we actually are partnering with industry. For example, TD Bank has come to us and offered us many positions for injured soldiers. They have gone off and worked with them.

I'll end at that. I think that answers your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hawn, you have four or five minutes.

The floor is yours.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and witnesses.

The department has begun a comprehensive strategic review to ensure its resources are aligned with the CFDS, and so on. I wonder if either the deputy minister or the admiral, or both, could provide us with some details about what the strategic review will entail and what kind of timeframe we're looking at for that review to take place.

[Robert Fonberg]

The strategic review is part of the Treasury Board's expenditure management system. Every fourth year, every department of government and agency is going to have to go through a strategic review. We are coming up to 2010-11, which will be the fourth round. At the end of this round, all departments will have gone through a strategic review.

We have not been formally officially notified by Treasury Board via the Prime Minister and cabinet that we're going to be in this round, although we've anticipated that. We're such a large, complex department that we actually started getting ready for this probably eight or nine months ago. So we built a team inside the organization.

The purpose of the review is to basically go through 100% of our spending programatically and ensure that we can answer a number of key questions, including that every dollar we're spending is aligned to the government's highest priorities and that every dollar is actually achieving value for money, is being spent effectively and efficiently.

The government in the context of strategic reviews has asked every department to identify the lowest 5% of their program spending. Every department that has gone through the process up to now has done that. We are just completing the 100% review of our programs, and we will start an exercise, probably over the next couple of weeks, to look at what is the bottom 5%.

The way the process runs, we will have a preliminary report to the Treasury Board, probably in mid-June if the process stays true to what it has been in the past, and a final report to Treasury Board in agreement on what that 5% is next fall. That's the timeline. That's comprehensive. We have a significant team looking at this stuff, and when it comes right down to it, having been in the Department of Finance and Treasury Board and PCO, it's fair for departments to have to look through and identify. Everybody has a bottom 5% of what they are doing. Everybody has an interest in that 5%, but everybody has a bottom 5%. Collectively with our political masters, obviously we have to come to that conclusion.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

Again, through you, Mr. Chair, probably to General Semianiw, I was recently at Shilo cutting a ribbon at a new recreation centre there that had a very large component of rehab incorporated into it. It was really quite impressive and was obviously aimed at helping soldiers, sailors, airmen, airwomen, or whoever, who have come back from Afghanistan or wherever with physical challenges. Is that going to be a model for recreation centres throughout the CF?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

About two years ago we established a director of rehabilitation at Canadian Forces, realizing the challenge, tying into what the associate had said, that the IED is the weapon of choice and the result of that is many men and women in uniform who actually end up losing a limb. That happens throughout the world. It is not just focused on Afghanistan.

We realized that and we established a director of rehabilitation. We then went out and partnered with seven different civilian rehabilitation centres across the country. Those centres are civilian, so we didn't have to build them; they're already there. We actually put our rehabilitation military specialists into them when soldiers come back and need them. Secondly, we provide funds, if they need it, to be able to provide that additional support when they are in there.

On the Shilo case, again, the next step was what happens when they're actually in that recovery phase. We want to use sports to enable their recovery. That's the simple logic, to go across the country now in some simple area, such as ensuring that even the lockers are big enough so that our men and women in uniform who need a little bit more space can actually go in there to do the training they need, and other areas. So yes, it is the model we are looking at to go across the country as part of our health and fitness strategy that was announced about a year and a half ago. It's all dovetailed in.

As you saw, the minister was at Soldier On, at the Paralympics, where we had a military contingent, which again speaks to our support for men and women in uniform when they go through those tough times.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Through you to Major-General Semianiw, there are some exciting things going on in rehab and other areas. There's a project in Edmonton at the Glenrose Rehabilitation Hospital that is paired with an organization here. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that in terms of research and development and clinical capability.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

Glenrose is one of the seven sites we have partnered with, because at the end of it all, Glenrose has a very high standard of policy, process, and structure in place to support them. Personally, I've been there. I've actually been there when they've made prostheses for soldiers. They showed me that. It is world class.

We are looking at some other supports. We saw it here in Ottawa. Perhaps in the near future we might be able to expand what we're doing here in Ottawa as part of a certain CAREN system.That's a 3-D system that supports men and women in uniform to better wear their prostheses. We are looking at the issue in Edmonton, and hopefully, in the future, we can see if perhaps we could broaden it to western Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Wilfert, as I understand it, you are going to share your time with Mr. Martin.

The floor is yours.