National Defence Committee on Dec. 7th, 2010

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Basically that.

On air-to-air, how do you compare to the F-35, in terms of operability and turnaround time, etc.? Is there a comparison to be made there?

[Antony Ogilvy]

We are not certain about the operational capability of the F-35A. What we would say, sir, is that the aircraft has been designed for a very specific role: first day of the war, very stealthy. It carries its weapons internally. It is redesigned for a specific role, whereas the Gripen is designed first and foremost as a fighter. We would say we are infinitely superior in terms of our air defence and our capability in the primary role as an air defender, compared to the F-35.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Just one technical thing. You talked about the turnaround of the air-to-air role taking ten minutes. What's “turnaround”? What does that mean?

[Antony Ogilvy]

That's the time taken on the ground to rearm and refuel the aircraft and put it back into the air. It takes just ten minutes to put the missiles on, put the fuel in, launch the aircraft.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I think you said you could meet the high-level capability requirements. If I may summarize your statement here today, you say you would guarantee the minimum of 100% offset. From your figures, it seems to be cheaper per unit than the F-35. The estimated operating costs of $4,000 to $4,500 you say is cheaper than your competitors, that you're interoperable with the F-35, and that you're willing to bid on a program of less than the full number--in other words, be interoperable with the F-35. Is that correct?

[Antony Ogilvy]

Yes, sir.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

And can I ask a specific question about the cost per hour? Is that an operating cost? We've heard here about something called sustainment costs--in other words, the ongoing maintenance, the refits, the check-overs, etc. Are you talking here about the cost of operating, or are you talking about the same figure that would be called sustainment costs over the life of an aircraft?

[Antony Ogilvy]

The figure we gave of $4,000 to $4,500 Canadian per hour covers the direct operating costs, which are basically the fuel, oil, all consumables, all spares, all first- and second-line servicing, everything you would need to operate the aircraft on and off base. The only thing we don't include there is the labour charge for off-base operation. There are too many variables there.

This figure is one you can use as a comparison. It's going to be the same metric applied to any aircraft. If you simply take an apples to apples, that gives you the comparison you need. How much does it cost to run this aircraft over 40 years? We say it's $4,000 to $4,500 per hour.

Sustainment engineering is a parallel activity, which would be done in this country, so we don't look at that. That's not a cost to you; that's part of your program, which comes with the Gripen aircraft. You will sustain and engineer your own aircraft. That's part of our commitment to you to enable you to do that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

And you say that is included in the $4,000, or is not?

[Antony Ogilvy]

No, sir. The $4,000 to $4,500 are direct operating costs. Sustainment—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

But that includes spares?

[Antony Ogilvy]

It does include spares, first- and second-line servicing, fuel, oil, and off-base servicing, all the maintenance you need. The only thing we don't include in that, as I say, is the labour costs. Labour costs vary so much around the world, sir, that we take out labour costs.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Have you been able to compare that $4,500 Canadian to other aircraft, such as the F-35?

[Antony Ogilvy]

We see some figures in the public domain that are really quite significantly greater. We say that a fleet of 65 Gripen would cost you about $50 million Canadian a year to operate on that basis, whereas we've seen figures of $250 million to $300 million to operate the F-35. I'm not sure of the basis for that, and whether it includes sustained engineering, but we certainly know that ours are a great deal less expensive to maintain than those of any of our competitors.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

On your participation in a Canadian program, what minimum fleet size of Gripens would make sense for you?

[Antony Ogilvy]

It would be any number, sir; it's entirely up to you. Probably two squadrons of 24 would be the minimum to give you an operational capability. But it's absolutely up to your operational requirements, if it were a fleet of both F-35 and Gripen. But I would suggest that 24 aircraft is the minimum. That's two light squadrons.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, sir.

Those are my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

I will give the floor to Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you to our witnesses for coming.

Are you aware that Brazil chose the Rafale aircraft in their competition?

[Antony Ogilvy]

I'm not aware of that in the last six hours, sir.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I think that news is a bit older than that.

The 265 Gripens that have been built are Gripen A to D, not Gripen next generation, correct?

[Antony Ogilvy]

That's correct, sir. They're a mixture of....

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

The prototype Gripen NG, next generation, first flew in April 2008, I believe.

How many countries have made a commitment to buy the next generation Gripen?

[Antony Ogilvy]

No one has made a commitment, but we are involved in campaigns in the countries I mentioned of India, Brazil, Netherlands, Denmark--

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Has the Swedish government expressed serious interest in the aircraft?