National Defence Committee on Jan. 31st, 2011

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

As you know, there are three important places: Halifax on the east coast, Trenton in central Canada, and Victoria on the west coast. The statistics we saw this morning seem to agree with you. There seem to be more problems on the east coast. All the red spots represent incidents. Naturally, there are more on Vancouver Island, but it seems that there's a problem in the east. Perhaps the Atlantic Ocean is stormier than the Pacific Ocean.

Military personnel often tell us that they do their job and that the situation is operational. In other words, they want to decide. I don't share that opinion. As a member of Parliament, I think that it is up to the elected representatives to decide. Furthermore, we are up against limited resources. So, I'm not able to tell you if Saint John has too many resources compared to Gander, or if the west coast has too much compared to the east coast. We are trying to consider this issue as a whole. So far, what I can see is that there isn't enough equipment.

You're aware that the acquisition of fixed wing search and rescue aircraft is currently a fundamental issue in Ottawa and involves the purchase of some 20 fixed-wing aircraft at a cost of $3 billion. I think that this could be useful to you. This could allow us not to take from Peter to pay Paul.

I would very much like your opinion on the possibility that Canada will acquire 25 new fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft and that a good number of them will go to the east coast, to Gander, maybe Saint John and Halifax. Do you think that will improve the situation? You said that Gander is the best place geographically for doing search and rescue. I think that I'm starting to see that. If the fixed-wing aircraft were added to the fleet and your constituency received a number of vehicles, would that help?

[Zane Tucker]

Thank you very much for your comments and questions.

Going back to the map and the stuff you alluded to, of course it shows with the dots where these folks are going. We have over 29,000 kilometres of coastline, so that gives you an idea of why it's concentrated very much on the east coast.

As I referenced in my report, we have the only base that I call “splintered”, with no fixed-wing support. So you have to wonder why we're doing it in other parts of the country but not here. I was just advocating for the addition of fixed-wing to our helicopters. It would make a great difference in the response times, and I think in the efficiencies as well. That's not only our opinion; it has been studied. The report I referenced came out in March last year. It says quite clearly that a fixed-wing allocation in Gander would enhance the services. That's why we're here.

We understand there are constraints on resources. What these folks are doing is dangerous, there are limits, and those sorts of things. But when you have a strong recommendation that says it obviously makes sense to go ahead and do it, how can we not be advocating for it? It's good when it's not just us as politicians talking about it but there's some concrete evidence for it.

So bringing fixed-wing to Gander, whether it's in one, two, or three years when we buy these new planes, would certainly be a wise decision, in our opinion.

[Reg Wright]

We certainly concur with the fixed-wing assets. As Zane said, I defer to the report by the experts who really understand the industry. The procurement of aircraft comes with a lot of requisite support in manpower, engineers, and mechanical support, so it needs to be considered holistically to get at the root of.... If the times are insufficient, let's address it from a fleet perspective and a manpower perspective.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

You still have one minute.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I will give up my turn.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

I'll give the floor to Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm delighted that the committee has been able to come to Gander and hear what you've had to say today. It's extremely important to our work. I do know, without having you tell me--but obviously you told us in a very comprehensive report--the importance of this operation to the town of Gander.

It's also, of course, extremely important to people like Mr. Johnson, whose occupation, and those of many more like him, is dependent upon having a good-quality search and rescue service. That's what the service is for. I think the location in Gander has demonstrated that it's a superb one, and the pre-eminent one for that purpose in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I am also very concerned, and I guess you are too...when we started the study, it was sort of intuitively my concern that we had a “standby posture”. That was the term they used--an odd term. It was a standby system where there was a 30-minute window to get in the air between 8 and 4, for 40 hours a week, and a two-hour window after that, although it's obvious they're often in the air before that.

This study occasioned a whole lot of inquiry by members of the committee, and some research, some of which you've referred to. But I'm particularly concerned about the fact that one study, which is dated 2004, by Sean Bourdon and Mark Rempel for DND, using the same chart that Mr. Bachand just told you about, determined that if you look at the 30-minute standby, for eight hours a day, five days a week, which is what we have, in fact only 17% of the incidents that occur, occur within that period. That seems to be consistent with what we heard this morning as well.

I know Mr. Johnson might have a particular view on that as well. If you're going fishing 24 hours a day and you're out 100 miles from Bonavista for four or five days, you're obviously outside that 8 to 4 window, especially if it's on the weekend. It seems to me, as you mentioned, Mr. Tucker, the response to improve that requires probably more assets and perhaps more manpower. I'm delighted to hear the five recommendations that you have. I think that's a good basis for us to say, okay, let's look at these.

How does it strike you, first of all, as part of a council, to say, okay, we've got a search and rescue service that's fully operational 30 minutes in the air for 40 hours a week, when we only get 17% of your calls? How does that strike you as a town representative?

[Zane Tucker]

I guess you look at what you can work with, with the resources that you're given. One of the comments I made—and I don't know if the committee has been looking at it very much—is that we are losing these professionals who are right now employed by the Department of National Defence. We're losing a lot of these people. It's not just here in Gander; it's right across the country. We're losing these folks to private companies.

So I think it's fair to say that they're operating with a skeleton crew. We've heard some instances over the years where they're doing a lot of things to juggle their personnel. As we're advocating for, there should be an enhancement of service if there are going to be any additional resources. I guess the issue is twofold. One, is money. So if the committee makes recommendations and in its wisdom says, “We need to put more money into this”, that's a great start. Two, we're going to need more personnel, so we're going to have to find those folks, train them, and, more importantly, keep them once we get them here.

With regard to your question regarding the percentage of time during the regular 8 to 4 business hours, so to speak, I guess they're doing the best they can with the resources the politicians are giving them. I think that's what they're taxed to do right now, and it is a challenge.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I was on the parliamentary program last summer and saw how the SAR techs operate, rappelling down and taking people out of the water and whatnot. I think everybody admires their skill, their ability, their courage, and their willingness to risk their lives to save those in peril. I think we all agree that these are remarkable people doing a terrific job. Our question, as politicians, is what kind of recommendation should we make to ensure that this coverage is better? From Gander's point of view, additional assets and additional crew are an enhancement to the other values that you talked about.

I'm also interested in the fixed-wing aircraft. We looked at those studies. The National Research Council did a study on the operating requirements for fixed-wing aircraft. Initially, in the procurement process, they were told not to worry about search and rescue response times--they're already fixed, leave them alone. But it's pretty clear that the addition of a fixed-wing aircraft in Gander would enhance the ability to get somewhere quickly. Having a 30-minute response time 24 hours a day would also allow you to get a different type of plane, one that didn't have the same speed requirements. So I think that has risen to the surface as an important enhancement of the operations in Gander as well as the ability to respond to someone in distress. You may want to comment on that.

Mr. Johnson, would you elaborate a little more? People have been talking within the fishing community about this issue. How much of an issue is it for people in your profession who are generally out at sea 24 hours a day?

[Albert Johnson]

Well, it's a big issue. We're out there and we know that the response time after four o'clock in the evening is two hours or so. It's on my mind quite a bit when I'm out there, in bad weather especially, and a lot of the fishermen have a concern about it.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Bachand was wondering why there were so many incidents in this part of the country as opposed to the west. Perhaps the reason is that there are a lot more fishermen in the five provinces that are covered here than out in British Columbia. Would you agree with that?

[Albert Johnson]

Yes, I certainly would agree with that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Okay. That'll do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

I will give the floor to Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you all for being here. We've had some worthwhile input and there are some worthwhile points of discussion.

Mr. Johnson, I want to clarify in my own mind the incident we're talking about. What time of day did you make the distress call?

[Albert Johnson]

I'm not sure exactly what time. I think it was between a quarter after four and 5:45, say, somewhere around that time.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

How far were you from Gander?

[Albert Johnson]

We were 128 miles from Cape Freels at the time.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Could someone help me with Newfoundland geography? How far is that from Gander?

[A voice]

Three hundred kilometres.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Three hundred kilometres, so 150 to 160 miles.

[Albert Johnson]

We were heading to St. John's with a sick man and the operator told me to go ahead to Cape Freels because that was the closest place to Gander.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'm just trying to get a handle on the response time you talked about. So it's about 150 to 160 miles. More than that? So it's going to take the helicopter, once it's airborne, almost an hour and a half to get there.

[Albert Johnson]

We were steaming in. We were in closer than that. When he got to us, we were a little over a hundred miles—