National Defence Committee on Feb. 1st, 2011

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both of the presenters.

First of all, Commissioner Wells, I want to thank you for your contribution to the whole issue of offshore safety. If our committee's recommendations, particularly on the speedy response time for the Cougar helicopter, were so readily accepted by Parliament, our committee would be a lot happier if we could have that kind of influence. That was a particularly important ruling, and one that was based on not only your seeing what happened in other places, but also on the imperative of getting there as fast as possible.

I think my colleagues know that I had standing at the inquiry as a party to ask questions of witnesses. One of the issues that came forward was the recognition that in this case the industry--Cougar--was the first responder. In other words, it didn't necessarily have the primary responsibility, but it was the first responder, the one that could get in the air first and be there first, because it was closer. That was the idea of being in St. John's.

In this Cougar helicopter crash, to use it as an example, there were two people in the water when the first responder arrived 76 minutes later. There were 18 people on the helicopter when it ditched. I suppose if it had been a more successful ditching, we would have had 18 people in the water.

Leaving aside the first responder, what's the importance of the second responder? What issues are related to the second responder? In this case DND has responsibility. What do you have to say about that?

[Robert Wells]

You mentioned a ditching. I see it as a crash.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

This one was a crash, yes.

[Robert Wells]

They lost control, whereas a ditching, to my mind, is a controlled alighting or landing on the water, which is not such a shock. This helicopter hit hard, and pieces came off everywhere, as we know. That's one aspect of it.

The difficulty is that helicopters in oceans usually turn over, and they turn over very rapidly, so a lot of training goes into survival, because if you are not trained in getting out of the helicopter, you're going to drown. If you have gone through the training--especially if you're physically fit, mentally strong, don't panic, know what to do, and have a plan as the ditching begins to take place--you have a much better chance of getting out of the helicopter.

To the best of my knowledge, most people involved in helicopter crashes are not killed in the crash. They drown. However, if they don't drown, they face a further ordeal, especially in our very hostile waters.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I think your commission also heard that the survival rate for ditchings at night was considerably lower than for ditchings in the daytime. I don't know if you remember the numbers.

[Robert Wells]

If I remember correctly, roughly 50% survive in the daytime—these are figures out of the North Sea, for the most part—but the fatality rate at night is 70%, more or less. That's the difference statistically from the past.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

So in terms of loss of life, it follows that the faster one can get to these circumstances, the better.

[Robert Wells]

I don't think there's any doubt about that. That's what they've done in the North Sea. As Mr. Clay said, for the most part they're at 15 minutes. Also, because of their geographical circumstances, they have very fast boats. I think BP, which we've heard so much about in the Gulf of Mexico, spent £1.3 billion about three to four years ago on fast boats that hang from the side of a mother ship. They can be released and go 30 knots or something. They have medical help, nursing, and all of that on board. When they rescue people in these fast boats, those rescued are considered to be in a place of safety.

They have so much more that has been built up over many years. There's the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. There are very many responders in that area of the North Sea. I don't think we could ever, given our geography, have the kind of coverage they have in the North Sea, so the coverage we have ought to be as quick off the mark as possible.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Clay, I noticed that you were reading from a document. I don't know if you have a written report that you might be able to submit to us afterwards, but if you can do that, it would be appreciated. I know you were cut short in terms of trying to give us the details of these operations.

You talked about the United Kingdom having a 15-minute response time from 0800 to 2200, which is ten o'clock at night. It's 45 minutes thereafter. A report done for the defence department shows that incidents are actually time sensitive. In fact, the 2004 report I have here says that with our 30-minute standby time from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., and two hours, the number of incidents that occur during that period from Monday to Friday, which is our coverage, is 17%, but if you increase that to, let's say, the time we're talking about in the U.K.--from 0800 to 2200--in fact 74% of the incidents would be covered. In this case, the example given is seven days a week and 16 hours of coverage from 8:00 a.m. until midnight.

Did you get that kind of analysis in other countries, or is that something that is too detailed for you to talk about? I do see that you talk about evenings in some cases, and night and day. Are there stretches of time? Can you give us more detail?

[Paul Clay]

I think we first have to clear up that there are different types of responses in different countries. In the U.K., there are four levels of response.

Her Majesty's Coastguard has the primary responsibility for all search and rescue, much the same as the Department of National Defence here in Canada. They have a response time of 15 minutes. The Royal Air Force also has four search and rescue aircraft, which are helicopters. They also have a response time of 15 minutes. They respond in a different way in different hours under different circumstances, and they are in different locations.

Then the oil companies, as Mr. Wells has already explained, have what they call Project Jigsaw, which is composed of dedicated search and rescue helicopters and extremely fast vessels that are the primary search and rescue means in the North Sea now. In fact, the helicopters are now the secondary means of search and rescue for the oil companies. The vessel that gets lowered, the fast rescue craft, is the primary means.

To answer your question, there is no simple answer to your question. It varies. There is no doubt that the quicker the response in the evening, the better, no matter where you are in the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

I have to give the floor to Mr. Payne for seven minutes.

Thank you very much.

I have to give the floor to Mr. Payne for seven minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the panel for appearing today. It's a very important issue that we are talking about.

I certainly appreciate the work you have done on the commission, Mr. Wells. During your remarks, I was interested to hear you talk about training. I come from a petrochemical industry background, and training was of the utmost priority, particularly around safety, first aid, and responsible care practices.

I saw our industry as the primary responder to be able to meet those requirements in terms of emergency response, even including fires at our facility, so I would like to get your take on who has the responsibility in terms of the training. In particular, we're talking about the helicopter you mentioned and its passengers. Could you could elaborate on that point? Who has that responsibility?

[Robert Wells]

The primary responsibility in this jurisdiction is that of the oil operators. The training is done in two places. The great majority of training is done in a place called Foxtrap, near St. John's, and it is under the aegis of the marine sciences department of the university. The training takes place there.

I did that training, which was very instructive, and Ms. Fagan did it also. The training is demanding, and it gives people like ourselves a grasp of what's involved. It's not easy.

There is training done in Halifax by a private company called Survival Systems, but most of the training is done here in Newfoundland. It's done every three years. You update every three years. When I was in the North Sea, I was interested to find that their training is every four years. Our experts pretty well all said it should be more frequent even than two years, but you have to be careful because you don't want to cause injury to the trainees, so you walk a fine line. You don't want to drown anybody or anything like that, and you don't want to put them into water that is too cold, because somebody who may not be strong or who does not have a strong heart may die. There's a fine balance to be achieved, but I think physical fitness, training, and familiarity with water--especially cold water--is a help.

The survivor of the crash that we had, Robert Decker, was a young man of about 26 or 27. He was in good shape. He had been a sailing instructor in small sailing boats for years. He was familiar with tipping over and being under the boat and in cold water. My own opinion, and perhaps the opinion of others also, is that his background helped him, because he didn't panic and lose his head when he found himself in a helicopter that was sinking on its side.

He didn't panic. He was knocked out, shall we say, at the instant, but he came to quite rapidly; the helicopter was sinking because all the windows and doors were knocked aside in the crash, and the water was literally going up through the fuselage of the helicopter and up through the windows on top. It was sinking sideways. He looked up and saw the open window. He didn't panic and he got up to the surface. He is, of course, the only one who did. There was another young lady who was found on the surface, but she was deceased. I don't know any more than that about the circumstances in her case. Perhaps the Transportation Safety Board may.

I think training, fitness, and familiarity with cold water are assets for anybody in a ditched helicopter in our waters.

I was born on the northeast coast of Newfoundland and grew up close to these cold waters. I have some knowledge of cold water. When I say cold, I mean cold. These waters are cold because of the Arctic Labrador current.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I am a Prairie boy, so I don't have that kind of information. From what I've seen and heard, certainly the climate here is devastating to individuals.

I'm assuming that all of those individuals who were on the helicopter were wearing survival suits.

[Robert Wells]

Yes, they were properly suited and they had time. You see, after the emergency and the oil pressure dropped, they had about 10 minutes of flying time. They didn't know how long it would be, but they certainly had time to zip up the face seal and prepare for whatever happened. Unfortunately, there was a loss of control and a crash.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I am going to share my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Yes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Help me to go into crash versus ditch, because I think that is fairly critical. We talked about the percentage of survival in a day ditch versus a night ditch, and that is significant, but we are not talking about a ditching here; we are talking about a crash.

[Robert Wells]

This was a crash.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

It was an out-of-control crash. I don't know whether TSB will make a judgment on this, but do you have any opinion on whether this was a survivable crash under normal circumstances?

[Robert Wells]

It may make such a determination, but the TSB gave three initial reports very shortly after the crash. They described what happened. There was a loss of control and a crash because the rear rotor became inoperable. The main rotor was operating, but they couldn't control the helicopter because the rear rotor, the steering rotor, was gone.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Moving forward, that's critical in helping us to say what we should be doing. We need to make sure we are not saying that this was a ditching and was survivable as a normal ditching would be.

[Robert Wells]

It's interesting that when Mr. Decker, the survivor, came to and the helicopter was sinking, the only light was the lights on the shoulders of the survival suits of the people in the helicopter, and there was no movement.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We know what that means.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Very well.

Thank you.

I'll give the floor to Monsieur LeBlanc.