Evidence of meeting #45 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was responsibility.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philip McDonald  As an Individual
Lana Payne  President, Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour
Lorraine Michael  Leader, New Democratic Party of Newfoundland and Labrador
Lawrence Sullivan  Owner, Sea Gypsy Enterprises

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Philip McDonald

For six years I worked as a fishery observer through a private company called Seawatch Incorporated, a subcontractor under DFO. My role was basically to go out on various fishing vessels, depending upon where I was assigned, and to go out on a trip or two on each boat, basically to see how much they were catching and where they were catching it, to make sure they were following the guidelines, and to take some samples. It was stuff like that.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

On your timelines that you've suggested here, I just want to let the committee know that these are confirmed in a Maritime Search and Rescue operations report, which I have copies of for the committee in both official languages. This confirms the response time of one hour and 20 minutes for the Cormorant helicopters out of Gander, after being tasked--not after locating you, or hearing about you, or hearing the EPIRB--and the response time of the Hercules out of Greenwood was that it was tasked at 16:30 in Nova Scotia and was airborne at 17:55, according to this report, one hour and 25 minutes later.

You have I think demonstrated to us, as a witness to this, that there were people who, if these assets had been in the air within 20 minutes or 30 minutes, as we've talked about, would have been there probably an hour earlier. You witnessed people losing their lives during that one-hour period. Have I got that perfectly clear?

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Philip McDonald

Yes, perfectly, right on the button. Like I said, it was around seven o'clock when I started having doubts if I was going to make it or not.

One of the young men was holding on to a piece of styrofoam. He let go of the aluminum boat he was holding on to with the other men and was holding on to a piece of styrofoam, like I had. This was about seven o'clock. Shortly after, the Lady Charlotte Star came on the scene and disappeared. She was doing her grid pattern of sorts, so she was going back and forth through the debris field. So when she first came on the scene he was still there, and when she vanished for a period of time I guess he lost all hope and he let go. But that was only 20 minutes before we got rescued.

The hour and 20 minutes it took for them to get airborne after they were tasked after four o'clock, there were 50 minutes lost there. That 50 minutes. No doubt about it, if they were there 50 minutes earlier, that particular individual and maybe another one would definitely be here today.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

There are other complications that are outside of that and don't have any bearing on it, but that particular point is included there as well. So I would ask that this be distributed to the committee for our consideration.

Mr. Sullivan, in your presentation you told us how long it took after the mayday that the aircraft was there, so that would have included response time as well as transit time to get there. Do you have any knowledge of when it was...? We're talking response time, but obviously the total response time includes both of those things. One of the things we're focused on is how long it takes to get in the air. Are you aware of the time it took? It was a Saturday morning, so it would have been under the two-hour period.

6:10 p.m.

Owner, Sea Gypsy Enterprises

Lawrence Sullivan

All I was told is they were at the scene within the two hours.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

They were at the scene within two hours.

6:10 p.m.

Owner, Sea Gypsy Enterprises

Lawrence Sullivan

An hour and 42 minutes.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

But you don't know when they got in the air, so you can't comment on that.

6:10 p.m.

Owner, Sea Gypsy Enterprises

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I'm curious. You weren't there, I suppose, so—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Shortly, Mr. Harris.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

In the three and a half hours it took to pick up, did these people drift quickly? What happened?

6:10 p.m.

Owner, Sea Gypsy Enterprises

Lawrence Sullivan

Yes. They drifted fairly quickly, but they said it was fairly hard to see with the debris and with the suits in the water with their heads sticking up with the suits. It wasn't as easy to spot as you would think. They were flying over them several times before they were spotted.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Did they have the Hercules there too?

6:15 p.m.

Owner, Sea Gypsy Enterprises

Lawrence Sullivan

Yes, the Hercules arrived there too, but they had done a fair amount of searching before, like I said, in different patterns, before they spotted them and picked them up.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

I will give the floor to Mr. Hawn.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming. I know it's not easy. We do appreciate the testimony. It's worth while, and as the chair said, it will guide us in our deliberations.

I'll finish up with a few questions. Clearly in your case, Mr. McDonald, there was more than the response time, which is a given. There were clearly some notification difficulties or breakdowns in communication, which obviously is a part of the whole thing. The EPIRB limitation, of course--as we found out today, or yesterday, I forget--it might take from the time the EPIRB goes off.... Of course there's no indication of location. It could take as much as 90 minutes before they get a location from the EPIRB, just because of where the satellite is.

There is absolutely no question that the faster you can get to the scene of an accident, regardless of the kind of accident, whatever we're talking about, the better it is. That's pretty self-evident. It's the kind of thing that governments in Canada have been wrestling with over the decades. Governments of all stripes have been wrestling with this to try to do the best we can.

We talked about shared responsibilities. I'd like to follow up a little bit, Ms. Michael, with your conversation with Monsieur Bachand, that there is responsibility in the oil patch, in the case of a large industry, to take some of that responsibility. We talked at one point about having an aircraft at one of the sites.

Do you think it's a feasible, reasonable expectation that perhaps we talk about four big operations out there—or soon to be four—that there be some combination of effort among those companies to combine resources and put a capability on one of those rigs? Would that be a reasonable thing to follow up on with those companies?

6:15 p.m.

Leader, New Democratic Party of Newfoundland and Labrador

Lorraine Michael

I certainly think it would be a reasonable thing to follow up on, especially as the SEALs are getting farther away from land and you actually now have a situation where helicopters have to stop before they go on. So I think you're going to have to start looking at some kind of substation system to go along with the total search and rescue package. I think that definitely has to be looked at.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Ms. Payne, you made a comment about it's critical to get on the site, the faster the better. In some places in the U.S. certain areas have requirements to get to a location and so on. Do you have an idea of what you think would be a reasonable expectation to get to the site of an incident? Because now some of these things, even today, are 500 kilometres offshore.

6:15 p.m.

President, Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour

Lana Payne

There are a couple of chapters in Justice Wells' report that deal with this in terms of what are acceptable and comparable at times when you look at what's happening in the North Sea and in Norway. So I would look to that, because they went to those regions and studied what was happening, including the substations and the coordination of activities between industry and governments and how they do that.

I'm not going to suggest that it should be 90 minutes or should be whatever. I think we should look at what the experts have already researched. But I know there's a discussion about resources. This is obviously the big thing. Where are we going to get the money to pay for this stuff, and what's acceptable?

Canada is an industrial nation. We have a lot of wealth. Our GDP is incredible and has been growing by leaps and bounds outside of that little blip in 2008 and 2009. Now we have all of this activity that's happening at sea, a lot more than we had 20 years ago when governments were grappling with these kinds of discussions and decision-making.

I really do believe it comes down to political choices. And to just leave these kinds of things up to industry could be mean then, in the case of the oil and gas industry, which has incredible resources and incredible wealth, that you get a type of search and rescue system for them, and then what do we do for everybody else? So I think the best way to build a really good search and rescue system is to pool our resources and say we're going to treat every citizen the same and every kind of industry the same, and I think that's only going to happen by having discussions with stakeholders.

One other point. As someone said--I think it was you--it's not just about taxes. Quite frankly, it is about how we collect resources from corporations and from people and what we do with them. Right now we're having these discussions in our country around things like corporate tax cuts and fighter jets and prisons and all of this kind of stuff. So I would argue that this is a very small budget item when we consider $16 billion for fighter jets and $8 billion for prisons and $6 billion in--

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

That's a political discussion for another place--

6:20 p.m.

President, Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour

Lana Payne

It is, but this is a political discussion, isn't it?

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

But since you've brought it up and to that point, I can't let the impression be that the government is planning to sign a cheque for $16 billion. We're going to pay for those airplanes until I am 90 years old, and the cost to maintain them is going to be spread until I'm 105 years old. So this is not a one-time, one-budget thing.

6:20 p.m.

President, Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour

Lana Payne

No, I know. That's kind of scary; that means my daughter is going to be--

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I totally agree that it's a shared responsibility, and that's the point: it's not to put it on industry, but it's to point out that there is a shared responsibility and we do all have to work together.

And to compare England, which is very tiny compared to Canada, and the responsibilities we have across this country is a little bit like apples and oranges.