Evidence of meeting #7 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dan Ross  Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Good day and welcome to the seventh meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are undertaking a study of the capital budget and procurement for the Department of National Defence.

We are privileged to welcome to the committee the Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. Dan Ross.

Thank you for being with us this morning. I will give you the floor, Mr. Ross, and after that, the members will be able to engage in a conversation with you.

You have 10 to 12 minutes. The floor is yours.

11:05 a.m.

Dan Ross Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Committee members, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the invitation to come and speak to you about procurement in the Department of National Defence today.

As the chair said, I'm the assistant deputy minister, matériel. The materiel group is a central service provider and functional authority for all materiel for the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence. Essentially, that means that the materiel group is accountable for acquiring and managing the equipment through its entire life cycle, from the identification of a requirement right through to disposal.

We are the overall design authority for Canadian Forces equipment and systems. We also oversee the defence materiel relationship with other Canadian government departments, agencies, the Canadian defence industry, foreign governments, and international organizations.

We employ approximately 4,400 civilian and military personnel. It takes experienced and professional staff to execute on the various procurement activities we face, and in this regard we are fortunate in that we have innovative, capable and dedicated professionals. We continue to make strenuous efforts to further professionalize our skills in complex project management.

I manage an annual budget of over $3.5 billion for capital expenditures annually and another $2.6 billion for maintenance and upgrades. We oversee approximately $22 billion in existing inventory of major systems and assets and I co-manage an active inventory of $5.2 billion with the Canadian Operational Support Command.

On average, annually we spend on materiel approximately $6 billion. There is a very predictable funding framework provided by the Canada First defence strategy, and that is reinforced by the departmental strategic investment plan. And I would comment, as well, that accrual budgeting has also been a key improvement in accelerating defence procurement in the past three or four years.

What keeps me awake at night, as you're no doubt aware, is the operational tempo of the Canadian Forces around the world, particularly over the last decade. Currently, we have 18 international missions under way, involving 5,200 members of the Canadian Forces. Vital as that is to meeting our obligations, it does consume resources, it increases equipment maintenance and repair, and it hastens deadlines for replacement.

Our military's equipment is often unique, is generally highly complex or sophisticated and frequently requires a measure of adaptation for use by our forces

The number of suppliers of major platforms is small and it is becoming smaller with the merger of various defence corporations worldwide. And these same corporations supply various countries, not just Canada.

Finally, in addition to meeting the urgent short-term requirements of our troops engaged in conflict and the longer-term requirements to make the future defence vision a reality, we also need to be accountable to Canadian taxpayers, to get best value for money, while taking into consideration industrial regional benefits, environmental health and safety, legislation of regulatory requirements, and international treaties and trade agreements.

I would comment that we have had some successes for our troops in recent years. For example, in terms of process we have shortened considerably the process in the past five years. We were averaging, in the previous ten years, 107 months to get to contract award, and we're averaging less than 48 months. This has largely been achieved by going to performance-based procurement, by going from the very detailed requirements to much higher-level performance-based requirements by minimizing customization and focusing on proven off-the-shelf solutions.

By applying these concepts, we have seen many examples of procurement successes such as the CF-18 modernization, with the last fighter delivered last week, ahead of schedule and well under budget.

There is also the Halifax class modernization program to extend the operational life of our frigates. It's a more than $2 billion program and is well under way, with our first frigate coming out of the water this fall in Halifax.

We've delivered the four C-17 strategic airlift aircraft early and well under budget again.

We are planning to accept the first of 17 new Hercules tactical airlifters shortly, six months ahead of schedule.

We signed a contract last August for 15 new Chinook 47F helicopters that will be based in Petawawa, a huge increase in the army's ability to conduct all sorts of operations, from combat to disaster relief.

We purchased 100 surplus Leopard 2 tanks, which have been enormously effective in Afghanistan and provided vital protection to our troops in dangerous missions.

The last project I'd comment on is with our armoured logistics trucks, which have been enormously effective in Afghanistan. Our crews have not suffered a single casualty to date in using those new heavy armoured trucks.

There are many other projects that have been brought under contract or delivered in the past four or five years.

As a result of the Canada First defence strategy, in the future the department will replace more of the force's core equipment platforms to preserve the maximum operational flexibility for the Canadian Forces. This will include replacing our existing destroyers and frigates and replacing the fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft, a capability currently provided by the Buffalo and Hercules.

We are also procuring the next generation of fighter aircraft to replace the existing fleet of CF-18s. We will replace the Aurora maritime aircraft, joint support ships, and Arctic offshore patrol ships.

Lastly, I would comment that we will progress to acquire a new family of land combat vehicles and systems to protect our land force soldiers in high-risk missions abroad. This will include the close combat vehicle, a light armoured vehicle upgrade--to be done by GDLS in London, Ontario--a tactical armoured patrol vehicle, and new armoured engineer vehicles based on Leopard 2 tanks.

Of particular note is the replacement of our ships. As stated in the Speech from the Throne, the government will continue to support the shipbuilding industry's sustainable development through a long-term approach to federal procurement for ships. In order to capitalize on a number of shipbuilding projects that we and other departments like the Canadian Coast Guard will undertake, we are working towards a national shipbuilding procurement strategy. This will reinvigorate Canadian shipbuilding and will provide work for our shipyards for the foreseeable future. It will also ensure the best value for Canada, the defence dollar, and the economy.

There is no other public sector organization of a comparable size or function in Canada to DND's materiel group. I'm proud of the progress we've made in the last few years.

Mr. Chair, I'd be delighted to take any questions from the members.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much, Mr. Ross.

I will give the floor to Mr. Wilfert.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chair, are we having two rounds?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

I think so.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I'll be sharing my time with my friend here, Mr. Martin.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

You can use your time.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Ross, for being here.

When the government commissioned a report, the Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries said that one minister, not three, should oversee the billions in future equipment. I couldn't agree with them more. I'm hoping that the government will respond as expeditiously as possible, because there seems to be a great deal of frustration out there with regard to many of these projects.

One of the issues that's been highlighted repeatedly, and I've asked this question before, is that the system is short on project managers in particular. That obviously has had a severe impact on the ability to have the system function effectively. Could you comment briefly on that? And then I have a couple of specific projects I'd like to ask about.

11:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Dan Ross

Thank you, sir.

I think it's true that project managers who have extensive experience to take on extremely difficult, large, and complex projects are relatively rare. We haven't had very many large, complex programs in the past 15 years. In six years, my predecessor actually only achieved the contract of one major new project, which was the maritime helicopter project.

Having said that, we've made a lot of progress in the past several years. We are growing and developing a stable of some very capable project managers, and we're working extremely hard to professionalize the skill of those project managers.

I'll give you a couple of examples. We have adopted and documented an international standard of skill as to what a complex project manager needs to do. Secondly, we've agreed with the Treasury Board Secretariat on project complexity and risk analysis, which we do for every project. We try to match the skill of a given project manager to the assessed risk level of a given project. For example, projects are rated from one, most simple, to four, most complex. Most of our project managers are in the one to three range, and we're trying to develop those skills...training, seminars. I've sent two senior people on a masters program in complex project management in Australia, where they stay for a one-year assignment. In exchange, Australia is sending extremely experienced project managers to Canada.

We are almost ready to implement our formal qualifications structure for managers of complex projects. This takes a long time to get to the level of people doing level-four complex projects, but we are working really hard at it. We've made some progress. Are we there? We're not there completely.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I would be interested, Mr. Chairman, if Mr. Ross could provide anything in writing with regard to this exchange program. I'd find that quite interesting to look at.

On the joint support ships that were promised six or seven years ago--first delivery of 2012 is obviously not going to happen--where are we on that one at the moment?

11:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Dan Ross

As you know, in the summer of 2008 the joint support ship project had unacceptable bids, and the government chose not to enter into an inappropriate contract. Working with the chief of the maritime staff, we have come back and very rigorously reviewed the requirement, and looked very hard at the cost drivers of that requirement.

At the time we went out with our request for proposal, the market was at an enormous peak boom period. Since then, actually, the market has crashed significantly in the maritime business of cargo ships and ship construction. Nevertheless, you have to understand those cost drivers. We understand those cost drivers much better than we did two years ago.

We are in the final preliminary design phase. We have an in-house engineering design firm producing an in-house design for joint support ships. We would like to go and look at two foreign, very successful designs--not have them build it, but to come in with proven designs and work with our project management team. We have not formally gone to any foreign country yet.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

The needs of the navy are the most pressing, I think, of the three. Just to rhyme off a few, you mentioned the Leopard tank and the Leopard 2. Forty are in storage. The acquisition dates for the joint strike fighters, the maritime patrol aircraft, and the FWSAR aircraft are nowhere to be seen yet. Orders for the close combat vehicles and tactical armoured patrol vehicles....

We hear all these announcements from the government, and then...nothing. This is probably also linked to making it more efficient in terms of being able to deal with acquisitions, but the fact is, we hear of them, and they're not being delivered. Obviously that is of concern, given the needs out there. But as I say, to me, the most pressing is the state of the navy.

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Dan Ross

Perhaps I could make one general comment on the list of future projects.

All of those programs don't move together. There is a very carefully laid-out investment plan that has a sequence of spending. You cannot bring in every major platform replacement program for the Canadian Forces to be spent on at the same time. They are all scheduled over a long period of time for a reason, because that's when the department can actually spend the money and manage the accrual space.

For example, a closed combat vehicle is scheduled in a certain timeframe and will progress to a contract award in a certain timeframe when the investment plan has allocated the money.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

But it raises expectations. People hear that this is going to happen, regardless of the timeframe, and then they don't see it. It's delayed and delayed. That's obviously an issue.

I've obviously taken up my time, but the next round goes to Mr. Martin.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you, Mr. Wilfert.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Bachand.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to welcome Mr. Ross. He is a favourite of ours, since he manages a very substantial budget. Money is important, as are economic spinoffs and military contracts.

I examined the feedback from the consultations that CADSI initiated with industrial and military components. Mr. Wilfert talked about governance and stated that one minister could be asked to head up the entire operation. As I see it, we still need someone to take responsibility at the political level. CADSI also made a number of other recommendations that I would like to discuss with you.

Specifically, CADSI recommended that the government implement a defence industrial strategy. Having consulted the industry on a number of occasions, I can report that it is not exactly pleased with the way things work. After the Canada First Defence Strategy was unveiled, a decision was made—one that politics did not play a major part in—to purchase strategic and tactical aircraft and so forth. The industry was not consulted much on the decision.

Would you also support the development and implementation of a defence industrial policy that could help the industry design what the government wants and fully help bring these designs to fruition?

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Dan Ross

Merci, Monsieur.

The fundamental question is Industry Canada's responsibility to articulate that from a point of government policy. I know the government will look very closely at the CADSI recommendation and respond at the appropriate time.

To go more specifically to your point, the predictability of where we will invest next with industry is a huge issue. I know that Tim Page and the CADSI organization made that recommendation, but we work very hard at communicating where the Canada First defence strategy priorities are. I meet regularly with those associations and brief them in detail.

For example, this month, army, navy, and air force industry days are occurring a full entire day with, for example, air force requirement staff and my project staff. We go through, with all interested Canadian parties, in great detail on what the air force program coming up will be, when, the requirements, and the deficiencies. We have a very open exchange.

I guess the last thing I would say is that on virtually every project we have multiple industry days and post our draft requirement documents, draft RFPs, etc. Most other countries don't do that at all. I think we've come a long way in being more communicative with our industry partners.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

CADSI also recommended that procurement practices and processes be improved. Among other things, much has been said about risk management sharing. The industry seems to be of the opinion that when a contract is put out to tender online through MERX or through a letter of intent, the risk to industry is significant, whereas the government does not assume its fair share of that risk.

Would you agree with that assessment?

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Dan Ross

I'm concerned by the same observation. The cost of that risk transfer to industry is given right back to us. When I insist on insurance liability coverage from a company on the construction of a ship or the delivery of a vehicle, they go out and get financing for that insurance and they put it in their bid price.

How often do we actually pay out on liability? Rarely. We rarely lose. The country is not very litigious in terms of defence contracting relative to the United States, for example—not litigious at all. We rarely are unsuccessful if there is some case.

I think it's right. We need to think about how must cost is being passed to the industry. And they pass it back to us for what real risk? We are taking that very seriously. Our first really energetic look at it was with the shipbuilding piece. As the companies would tell you, we amended the RFPs during the process to reduce the liability risks that we had passed to them. They had come back and said that to us. We did a worldwide review of it and we went back and amended the RFP.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

I realize that you know this issue like the back of your hand. I would like to use the time that I have left to go over with you the main armament projects. The Library did some research for us on this topic.

Off the top of your head, can you tell me what the cost of each of these project is? I know that you can give me that information. I'm interested not only in acquisition costs, but also in in-service support costs. For example, in the case of a Boeing C-17 and a $3 billion price tag, are we talking about $1.5 billion in acquisition costs and about $1.5 billion in in-service support costs?

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Dan Ross

I don't have that actual number with me. I believe the actual contract value with Boeing for the C-17s was slightly over $1 billion--$1.1 billion.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Acquisition.

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence

Dan Ross

Acquisition. I don't have the in-service support price with me, but I can get that for you for the—

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Could you get those figures for me, for the Boeings as well as for the Chinooks?

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence