Evidence of meeting #8 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was position.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Walter Semianiw  Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

I have two quick questions.

Assume I'm 30 years younger than I am and I knock on the door of the recruiting office. One of the challenges that is being expressed to me in my area is that when somebody applies, they do the initial work, but the period of time between approaching the recruiting office and the time they actually get to do something is quite long. As a result, we lose a lot of qualified people when other employers pick them up, because we're all competing for a declining population of potential workers.

11:45 a.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

Yes. That's a fair question.

There are two issues. One, I know you actually qualify in this group, because I've looked at your bio.

11:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:45 a.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

You could still enroll: we take people up to 52. We actually have recruits at the recruit school in Saint-Jean who Monsieur Bachand has met who are 50, 51, and 52. They change the dynamic of the recruiting system dramatically.

So you're right, we have people coming through, and that in itself is presenting its own challenges. What you really want as a target audience is 18 to 25, because at the end of it, when you're out there and you're humping a rucksack, it's a young person's game in many cases. It gets tougher when you get as old as I am. I've still got to do it. I did my PT test two weeks ago.

But I come back to the second issue, which is really fundamental to this discussion, and that is the training pipeline. What you speak to is what we call those on the basic training list. That number has expanded over the last number of years because we recruited so many people.

On the one hand, I've had great recruiting success. We recruited this year some 7,700 and some figures, grosso modo. The last time we had to do that successfully from a Canadian Forces perspective was the Korean War. So it's great kudos to the men and women in uniform who've recruited everybody, but then it's that training pipeline. So what are we doing?

As one of the honourable members will tell you, one of the things the air force has done is cut back the training required to train a pilot, because what was required was four years. It speaks to your issue. How do you keep someone motivated who came in wanting to fly for four years to cut that back? That's then challenged with the issue of safety, due diligence, with ensuring that people are trained effectively.

What we are doing--if I can give you some examples to kind of cut that down--is we partnered a year and a half ago with five community colleges across the country to start doing some of our training. We do not have enough people to do the training, which is why we've hired people on class B from the regular forces to come back and do the training for two or three years in many cases.

You'll find them in Saint-Jean, across the country in Wainwright, at any training establishment, because our training capacity is limited. That's where the question is. How are we going to ensure that we reduce the amount of time to an increasing number of folks coming in? We've partnered with five community colleges, and we're expanding the program so they do the training--geomatics training, cooks training--so we push people out.

We have spoken to a number of those in charge at community colleges, extremely happy with the program from our perspective and from theirs. It has actually assisted in the dress and deportment at the community colleges, because we have all of our men and women in uniform go to college in this program dressed in uniform. They actually move around like military soldiers, sailors, airmen, and airwomen. So it's actually added to that program as well.

But it is a critical challenge right now. That number is high, and how do you reduce the training pipeline without sacrificing the standards and the quality? You can always be more efficient, but when you touch effectiveness becomes the real challenge.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Merci, General. Thank you very much.

Before giving the floor to Mr. Boughen, I just want to wish a happy birthday to Mr. Martin today on behalf of the committee.

11:50 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you. Merci beaucoup, monsieur le président.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Now you're too old.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

No, actually, General Semianiw gave me some hope.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Mr. Boughen, you have the floor.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly welcome our witnesses this afternoon. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us.

When I read your comments as you were speaking, General, I was struck by the fact that it seemed you were itemizing need at the corporal level a couple of times in the document. You didn't address needs at the officer level. Could you share with us if maybe there are some needs there and how you're handling those requirements?

11:50 a.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

The reason I emphasized that particular area is because it's an area I think has gone unnoticed. I think part of the issue is raising the question as to whether this is something happening only at the top. The message is that it's happening right across, and it's probably like a pyramid when you take a look at the numbers. We can, as we said, provide that data and that information to the committee.

It happens at every rank level, at the officer level all the way down to lieutenant, captain, and major. Why? Because you have those three competing factors: retention; a baby boomer bus going through; high operational tempo and then at the same time needing to train folks. We need more and more folks at every level. The trainers are our corporals, master-corporals, sergeants, warrants, petty officers first and second class, and chief petty officers. At all rank levels it occurs and actually has occurred.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Thank you.

Thanks, Chair. I'm sharing with Mr. Hiebert.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

You wish to share your time.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To follow up on Mr. Bachand's scenario, you talked about the fact that it's certainly possible and in fact is legal. We're looking at this from a policy perspective, and I just want to get your impression in regard to the creation of these class B positions as to what percentage you think is legitimate using the resources that are needed for those positions, or do you think it's possible or even likely that some people are gaming the system for their own benefit? If so, would you give us an estimate as to how many you think that might be?

11:50 a.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

Thank you very much.

To answer your last question, I don't know anyone who's gaming the system. I'll tell you that to start with. I think if you're gaming the system you're not only being unfair to yourself and the Canadian Forces, but also to that position, because you haven't hired the best person for the job and that actually is having a detrimental effect on the Canadian Forces. If it is happening, I have not met anybody who is actually doing it, nor have seen myself someone who's gaming it.

In my organization I have some strict controls to ensure that the person who actually runs the software and runs the program works right next door to me and speaks to me on a daily basis. When things do come up, as I mentioned, there's actually oversight. So as for people gaming it, I can't tell you, but I would say if people are doing that it's to the detriment of a number of folks there.

It comes back to when we talk about the issue of what this is all about. If you take this up to 66,000 feet and look at the larger issue, it's the need towards more of a centralized approach. That's not for us, but it's for reservists so that they have one place to go in the navy, army, or air force if they want to look for a job. That's the first thing we're working on. Second, it's to ensure that the process is transparent and open like it should be. Third, the last piece, is that the selection process is open and transparent, and that's what we're moving towards.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

The only other question I would have would be, how far along are we towards the goals set out in the Canada First defence strategy in terms of recruiting? I know you said that last year's numbers were above target, but I know that the overall targets were ambitious.

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

Yes, on that issue, I got myself in a little bit of hot water here with the Canadian Forces because I exceeded my targets by 1,000. It's good news on the one hand, but I have to slow it down a little bit. We have had so many Canadians come to the door at all ages saying that they wanted to join the forces. So my target last year was to expand by 1,000, and I expanded by 2,000.

It is a success, but I have to take a look at that, because it does come back to it having to be managed. It does come back to the question raised on the other side of the floor here of whether you have the training capacity to meet that need. That's the issue, because if I don't I'll have people standing around saying this isn't what they signed up for, and they're going to leave. That's what we work against. We want to get people into the forces and get them in training because they want to serve. That's what they want to do. I've talked to men in Borden who are waiting for training: “I came to serve. I want to serve. How can I serve this nation?” That's what we have to get done as quickly as possible.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

I guess my question is how many more people you need to hire over the next couple of years to achieve that overall target.

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

On the regular force side, I need to hire another 2,000 to achieve the government's direction policy as part of the Canada First defence strategy. Remember, I could do that tomorrow morning. As probably many members of the committee are not aware, we have 30,000 folks who actually apply. We only take 7,000. It's not 7,000 for 7,000; there are 30,000 who actually apply.

There is a standard. They have to do a number of tests. It's an issue of ensuring that we have Canada's best. That is our aim. We could achieve the aim, but we want to ensure we have the best. Right now we're 2,000 shy of the target because we've had such great success. It's strong advertising and a streamlined recruiting process that gets people in.

I've said here before that I had a challenge at the end-of-training process in Saint-Jean. My challenge is that I have people showing up saying, “I didn't sign up to come in the military in 20 days. I saw somewhere that I'd get a call in six months.” We have sped this up so efficiently that we get people in very quickly.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much.

I'll give the floor to Monsieur Paillé.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I, too, would like to welcome our witnesses to the Committee.

You said earlier that, in your opinion, there was not necessarily any abuse. I am not accusing anyone, but given the context, I have good reason to doubt that. There are fewer and fewer candidates and there will be more and more baby-boomers retiring.

Under the circumstances, is demand not higher than usual? Could some people not be abusing the process?

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

I think as in everything....

Is that possible? Yes, in life, anything is possible. Yes.

Everything is possible. Could someone...? I personally don't know anyone who has gamed in the system as laid out in the question.

Everyone in the Canadian Forces is very aware that the number of class B employment opportunities is going down. The question I would ask the committee to ponder is why anyone would get out of the Canadian Forces early to take a class B job, knowing that class B employment is coming down? It has already dropped by 1,000 or 1,500 in the last six months. That's part of the challenge to begin with.

So is it possible, given that it's a decentralized selection process? Yes, it is. Everything is possible. I would hope that no one is gaming the system. But is it possible? Yes, it is possible, as in anything and everything.

Noon

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

You said that colonels and generals operate independently in terms of recruitment or managing positions. You also said in your opening statement that you could create a position, if your budget allows.

Are colonels and generals also free to manage their own budget? You will understand in a moment why I ask that question.

Noon

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

Oui. Une bonne question.

To add another complexity to this whole issue is that anyone who owns a budget has the authority to actually establish a class B position. Why? Because they have the money to do it.

Clearly they're going to have to show the person they work for that there is a need for the position. Those people who work for me have to show that we need a class B position and then they have to come to the table with the money.

That's part of the issue. It's not just left to those at the top, the generals and the colonels, but everyone who controls a budget. And in most cases, it goes all the way down. There are captains who command units.

There are unit commanders, captains, majors, lieutenant-colonels.

Anyone who has money, and that's a current construct, has the authority to establish a class B position. Then they have to go through the process, which is an open process, to select the needs for that position.

As I said, that was the issue for me within my command. People were being hired across the country within the organization without a centralized view or a prioritization, which is why we put the software in place. Everyone now has to come to one spot. I know exactly what class B positions are being put out there, and all the call orders.