Evidence of meeting #10 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forces.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jonathan Vance  Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

No, you're fair.

In regard to the definition of success, we have watched missions have evolving definitions of success. In Libya, for example, it was an R2P, which seemed to migrate to regime change, arguably. Then years ago in Afghanistan, it was to eliminate bin Laden, and it migrated to something else, then something else, then something else again. It puts a tremendous strain on the military to achieve success.

When the government tasks the military to do something, how is the definition of success negotiated so that it's within your capabilities and is reasonable?

10:25 a.m.

Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

MGen Jonathan Vance

That's a perfect question.

I would say it's an ongoing process in cases where the situation evolves. Afghanistan is a great case in point. The start point was counter-terrorism operations to eliminate the threat—the Taliban—from government, which happened extremely well. The follow-on operation over time was to extend Afghan governance so that it was competent in its own right. That's really what the operation was. There were various strategies used to achieve that, ultimately the best being a counter-insurgency strategy. But the job was to help Afghans extend their governance capacity across sectors such that, once it were extended, it would be successfully serving their population and thereby, by its very nature, eclipse the fuel that causes insurgencies to mount.

That evolved, and I think one thing one must keep in mind is that there are a lot of starting points to conflict, but they don't always stay there. I know you are aware of this, but the forces at play, be they against you or with you, change. In Afghanistan, they changed a lot. An insurgency blossomed because there wasn't enough extant capacity in Afghan governance that was credible enough, that could extend far enough, to squelch the start of an insurgency. The flames were fanned, and it grew.

In the military, we go through all sorts of potential scenarios—this could happen, that could happen.... We are doing it now with Libya. Libya could go in a whole bunch of different ways. We try to understand what could happen, given certain factors at play. I think our interaction with, as you say, government is frank and open. The CDS ultimately is the one who provides military advice to government. That really is the answer to your question. There are all sorts of supporters, but ultimately it comes down to the Chief of Defence Staff saying, this is what we can do, this is what that would look like, this is the kind of success it may or may not bring, and here are the risks.

I wouldn't characterize it as a negotiation, sir. I would characterize it as a pretty frank and honest exchange. We don't necessarily say, at the beginning of a conflict, if this happened, what about this? We don't work that way. We evolve, and government either has us evolve or does not have us evolve—and then we would leave or would do something completely different, which is rather what we've seen in Afghanistan. The counter-insurgency strategy had reached a certain point—we knew it would—and the U.S. surge had been effective. Kandahar was relatively quiet compared with years past, I can tell you. It was a good time to start to invest in the institutions that supported governance in Afghanistan.

Sometimes this happens as a result of forethought, predetermined actions, all sorts of thinking, and sometimes you are just trying to do the right thing when another right thing to do appears before you. It's not always fore-ordained.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Ms. Gallant. You're batting cleanup here.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If we go back to your slide on the contributors to readiness, I notice that everything—the page, the diagram—is pretty symmetrical.

10:30 a.m.

Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

MGen Jonathan Vance

It's the limit of my PowerPoint skills.

10:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

All right. In terms of reality, we're just coming out of Afghanistan, and still have a bit of a training mission there; the associate minister of National Defence announced that we're going to have a major refurbishment of our land vehicles; and we have equipment that still needs to be received.

What I'm wondering is where our shortfalls are in this scenario. We have resources. Do we have everything we need to go through what we've just gone through? Do we need more resources in terms of intelligence? Training appears to be well on the go. We just visited Wainwright and saw the brigade-wide exercise there. And there's strategic policy. But I'm most concerned about the resources: your equipment, and the people with the training and the capabilities in the right ranks to be able to lead our troops in harm's way.

10:35 a.m.

Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

MGen Jonathan Vance

Thank you for the question.

I'm not in a position, by virtue of the job I'm in, to really look at or understand any shortfalls. There are no shortfalls in my world, because we frame operations such that we can do them. I'm dealing with the here and now.

The vice chief would be able to describe where we would need to invest more so that we have the force we want in the future—a little more of this, a little less of that. He's in a better position because the design of the force, the force development process that goes into it, comes up with a model of how we want to be, where we want to invest. Then you invest in the delta.

Again, I don't mean to sound facetious. I handle the forces from zero to three years; that's the horizon I work within. From where I sit, I don't have what I would classically call shortfalls. We need to make certain that we continue to invest—and so this is not about a shortfall, but about an area to invest in, and I've mentioned our cyber capacity before. We want to make sure our networks are secure no matter what happens in the future. And we want to make certain that we increase our ability to use our own or others' ISR capacity. We want to make certain that our intelligence networks remain intact with our allies, to inform us well of what's going on around the world. Some of this demands investment in people, equipment, and training and education.

I don't go to work thinking that I have a major shortfall, that we have a big problem. It would be disingenuous to say that it would be great to have more of this. We have it. If it needs to be moved through readiness and be invested in so as to be immediately available when it's asked for, that's actually a professional responsibility of mine. It's not a hole; it's my job.

I try to ensure that I contribute to the work that goes on to determine what needs to be invested in so that it's ready at the right time. Do we continue to produce army battalions so that they're ready? Do we continue to have ready-duty ships? Do we continue to have ready aircraft? Do we need to tweak that? That's what I do, and at this point in time I'm not seeing any gap in our ability to respond to what we're being asked to respond to. I guess that's key.

If someone were asking me to do something I weren't ready for, I might have a different answer, but so far that has not been the case.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

So, when you're playing your set of simultaneous what-if scenarios, basically you work with what you have at hand. You don't see anything that we're short of at the moment that would prevent our doing something that is necessary to do?

10:35 a.m.

Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

MGen Jonathan Vance

That's correct. We need to invest in our ability to manage intelligence, ISR, and continue to invest in training so that we can use that information once we get it—all of what we call our command and control, communications, computers. C4ISR is the big term; it's the means whereby we bring it all together to provide visibility to commanders and soldiers at all levels, using wide-band capacity to share information. This is a big area that we need to invest in. It's not a shortfall now; but if we don't invest in it, it's going to be a shortfall. So we are investing in it.

Again, it's not really my part ship, in terms of readiness. I manage readiness for the CDS with the forces that exist. The vice chief sits on top of the process and makes certain that investments occur in a timely way so that CDS and the ops staff have at their disposal the forces that the world demands at that time, that conflict demands at that time.

So far, I think we're quite good at that, if I may say so.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I only have one question, and it's really for clarification. When you were answering one of the previous questions, you talked about our NATO expectations in terms of readiness. I believe you said that it's under chapter 5 of the agreement. What exactly...?

10:35 a.m.

Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

MGen Jonathan Vance

It's in terms of our response, for collective defence.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

So what is Canada's obligation under NATO in terms of readiness? What's the ongoing expectation in case something comes out of the blue and NATO is asked to intervene?

10:40 a.m.

Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

MGen Jonathan Vance

As far as I understand there are no forced structure expectations. NATO would not expect force X to be available anywhere, but I'm going to have to check on that. It does not affect my day greatly, so I'm probably going to need to take that one on notice.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Alexander, on that point....

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Just to clarify this, I think what was meant was article 5 of our North Atlantic Treaty, which is the obligation of one ally to come to the aid of the others if they are attacked on their territory.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

It's only been invoked once, after 9/11....

10:40 a.m.

Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

MGen Jonathan Vance

Right. I got “article” and “chapter” confused between the UN and NATO.

At this point in time we don't manage the forces based on having.... The Canada First defence strategy does not have an earmarked unit to be able to respond to a NATO request. We do not do that. But there are expectations that allies would contribute—sometimes it's discrete capability, people, or resources—to NATO capacity. There's an expectation, because we're in an alliance and signed up for the alliance, that we would respond. But I think I said it doesn't come chapter and verse in terms of what you must to have to do that, but by agreement as part of an alliance. So you can opt in or opt out. That's the nature of it.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Just to follow up on the earlier point of information that Mr. McKay's shared with the committee, I would like to form that into a motion, which I believe was already carried, based on everybody's round of applause. The motion would read:That the Committee congratulate MGen. Jonathan Vance for the 2011 Vimy Award he will receive from the Conference of Defence Associations Institute on Friday, November 18, 2011, for outstanding service to the defence and security of Canada.

Agreed?

10:40 a.m.

An hon. member

Agreed.

10:40 a.m.

Chair

Again, congratulations. Well done for your great service to the country and your strategic thinking that you have to do in running all components of our armed services to make sure that we are ready. I appreciate your comments and your candour with the committee today, which are going to help us immensely in our study.

With that I'll have a motion to adjourn.

10:40 a.m.

An hon. member

I so move.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

The meeting is adjourned.