National Defence Committee on Sept. 20th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I call this meeting to order.

We're at meeting number two of the Standing Committee on National Defence. Just so that everybody is aware, we are being recorded.

We are continuing with our briefings on Libya.

Joining us today is Her Excellency Sandra McCardell, the ambassador of Canada to Libya.

From the Department of National Defence, we have Major-General Jonathan Vance; Jill Sinclair, the assistant deputy minister of policy; and Captain Geneviève Bernatchez, the deputy judge advocate general of operations.

From DFAIT, we are joined by Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, director general of the stabilization and reconstruction task force.

From CIDA, we have Leslie Norton, director general of the international humanitarian assistance directorate, multilateral and global programs branch; and Bob Johnston, the regional director general for Europe, the Middle East, Maghreb, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

I want to welcome all of you back to committee. We're looking forward to hearing your comments and how things are progressing.

With that, we'll kick off with Ambassador McCardell.

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell, Canadian Ambassador to Libya]

Thank you.

Members of the committee, it is a pleasure to meet with you today against the backdrop of a Libya much changed since our informal discussions of just over one month ago. At that time, our attention was focused on the pace and direction of change on the ground as we continued to look for actions by Canada and the international community that would improve the protection of civilians in Libya in the near and long term. The “tipping point” we spoke of was much nearer than many of us dared hope: ten days after our meeting on August 12, most of the Libyan people, including those in Tripoli, were freed from the control of the Gadhafi regime.

Since that time, Canada has responded quickly with a number of steps to support the new Libya. On August 25, Canada accredited the new Libyan chargé d’affaires appointed by the National Transitional Council and committed to interact with the NTC as Libya’s government until an elected government is in place.

On September 1, Prime Minister Harper attended the Paris conference on Libya, where he met with the chair of the executive office of the NTC, Mahmoud Jibril, and informed him directly of the lifting of unilateral sanctions imposed on the Libyan government under the Special Economic Measures Act. At the same time, Canada approached the United Nations to make available to the Libyan people funds frozen under multilateral sanctions.

After receiving the necessary authorities from the UN sanctions committee, Minister Baird announced on September 13 the unfreezing of all Libyan assets held in Canada and by Canadian institutions, worth roughly $2.2 billion. Today the Prime Minister is participating in a high-level meeting hosted by the United Nations secretary-general to coordinate international assistance to the Libyan-led transition.

In addition to support for Libya, Canada is also focused on returning full services to Canadians in Libya, including support for Canadian companies. Following an assessment mission by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and the Department of National Defence, Canada has re-established its diplomatic presence in Libya, six-and-a-half months after evacuating all personnel and suspending operations. The embassy is currently operating out of a temporary location while repairs on the chancery are completed. As soon as an appropriate level of security is in place, it will re-open fully operational to provide services to Canadians as quickly as possible.

Given Canada’s role in liberating Libya and the greater atmosphere of opportunity post-Gadhafi, the embassy complement will be expanded to increase our capacity for political analysis, engagement with the NTC, and promotion of Canadian commercial interests. We are currently examining ways of supporting Libya’s transition through targeted stabilization assistance, and consultations are under way with the UN and with the NTC to ensure that Canada’s contribution is coordinated with international partners and responds to the needs identified by the Libyans themselves.

Officials are in regular contact with companies previously active in Libya, or who have indicated an interest in becoming so, to discuss how the Government of Canada can best support their interests. The early re-establishment of Libya’s economy and the construction and reconstruction of key infrastructure are important contributions to Libya’s long-term stability and prosperity.

As part of the assessment mission in Tripoli, I witnessed personally changes on the ground. Traffic jams are back in Tripoli—a sign both that basic commodities like fuel are now available and that the people have the confidence to leave their homes.

The overall atmosphere was almost festive, with flags of the new Libya prominently displayed throughout the city, and children and adults alike dressed in t-shirts and ball caps with red, black and green stripes. You now see a degree of civil responsibility—street-cleaning, neighbourhood distribution of water and food when both were scarce—that did not previously exist.

Outside specific areas of fierce fighting, such as Misrata, the infrastructure is largely intact. In Tripoli, the precision of NATO strikes over the past months was evident; some government buildings are damaged, but little else.

As well, Libya enjoys oil wealth, which will be of great assistance in its rebuilding. While there has been some damage to oil facilities, repairs are already beginning.

Despite these very positive signs, there are real challenges on the horizon. Many of the demands for a better quality of life that preceded the conflict remain--demands for improved education, medical services, and employment--and the expectations for rapid improvement after four decades of stagnation are rising quickly.

The NTC, which has done good work so far in maintaining order and establishing itself as a new government, must now tackle the key issues, as we discussed in our previous meeting. These include maintaining cohesion among disparate elements and those with personal ambition now that the shared goal of ridding the country of Gadhafi has been largely achieved; introducing transparency and respect for human rights and the rule of law in a country that has little experience of democracy; reconciling diverse elements and preventing retaliatory attacks so that all may find their future in the new Libya; gaining control of the many thousands of weapons now in circulation and the young men who carry them--all this against the backdrop of Gadhafi, who remains at large with an unknown degree of influence.

These are significant hurdles to overcome. The importance of how they are addressed now cannot be underestimated, as these early steps will establish the country's path for the months and years to come.

In closing, I would like to share with you the goodwill that Canada enjoys in Libya as a result of our decisive action within the NATO mission. Those I met in Tripoli frequently expressed their thanks for Canada's strong support of the revolution over the past months. The chair of the NTC, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, in his first public address of his return to Tripoli, thanked Canada specifically for its assistance. Given the near unanimous support in Parliament for Canada's participation in Operation Unified Protector, I pass their thanks on to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Ambassador.

General Vance, you have the floor.

[Major-General Jonathan Vance, Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to brief you on Operation MOBILE, Canada's military contribution to the international effort to respond to the crisis in Libya.

I am Major-General Jonathan Vance, director of the strategic joint staff at National Defence headquarters. With me this afternoon I have Jill Sinclair, assistant deputy minister of policy at National Defence, as well Captain (Navy) Geneviève Bernatchez, deputy judge advocate general for operations.

Before you are slides that outline the Canadian Forces involvement in the NATO mission in Libya. I would like to walk you through our past and present contributions to the mission, after which we would be pleased to answer your questions.

Slides 1 and 2 are what I'll be referring to now: the Canadian Forces' role in the Libyan crisis.

I will focus my comments on the military aspects of the international effort.

In February of this year, in response to the emerging crisis in Libya, the Government of Canada advised Canadian citizens to leave Libya. Soon after, the Department of Foreign Affairs began a concerted effort to evacuate all Canadians. The Canadian Forces were asked to assist, and we deployed two C-17 Globemaster and Hercules transport planes to help evacuate Canadians and other eligible individuals.

On March 2 Her Majesty's Canadian Ship Charlottetown, with an embarked CH-124 Sea King helicopter, departed from Halifax for the Mediterranean. On March 14 the Charlottetown joined the NATO fleet off the coast of Libya, and began enforcement of the arms embargo shortly thereafter.

In total, the Canadian Forces during this period conducted seven flights and assisted in evacuating 153 Canadians and entitled persons from Libya. In addition, the NCC, the non-combatant evacuation operation centre, assisted with the departure of 4,431 entitled persons, including 308 Canadians, before ceasing operations on March 9.

As you know, this initial 90-day Canadian military response was supported unanimously in the House of Commons. In June the House voted to support the extension of Canada's commitment to the NATO mission until September 27, 2011.

I'm looking now at slide three, which addresses CF support to Operation Unified Protector. Operation Unified Protector, which is the NATO name for this operation, has three clear objectives known as the Berlin goals, which were set by NATO foreign ministers last April: an end to all attacks against civilians, the verifiable withdrawal of the regime's military and paramilitary forces to bases, and full and unhindered access to humanitarian aid to all those who need it across Libya.

Let's now look at slide 4.

Canada has provided significant military support to the NATO mission in the form of both air and sea assets. Presently, we have seven CF-18 Hornet Fighters, two CC-150 Polaris Tankers, and two Aurora maritime patrol aircraft deployed in the region, as well as HMCS VANCOUVER with an embarked Sea King helicopter.

Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard remains in the critical position of the NATO overall commander of the combined joint task force for Operation Unified Protector.

Slide five outlines the current situation as of mid-September. If you turn to this map on slide five, I can briefly discuss the situation. The National Transitional Council forces have made several breakthroughs since I last briefed this committee, in August. Most notably, the NTC now firmly controls Tripoli, and that city continues to move towards normalcy, as the ambassador described.

The most significant area of confrontation is now in the central region along the coast between Sirte and Bani Walid and south to Sebha. Pro-Gadhafi forces have consolidated, and are countering the advance of NTC forces. NTC forces are making progress. The fighting continues, and the NTC leaders are taking steps to ensure their legitimacy with the population, the international community, and even their opponents. Progress is being made, but it's slow and difficult.

The next slide looks at the status of NATO objectives. In terms of the first Berlin goal, an end to attacks against civilians, NATO allies and partners have severely reduced Gadhafi's ability to attack civilians but have not yet eliminated it. The no-fly zone and embargo have been enforced, and pro-regime threats are being eliminated. There remain, however, ongoing threats to civilians in areas controlled by pro-Gadhafi forces.

In terms of the second objective, a return of regime forces to bases, progress is being made in that pro-Gadhafi forces have been pressured to withdraw by increasingly effective NTC forces, but hostilities continue.

Finally, with regard to the third Berlin goal, ensuring unhindered access to humanitarian aid, as my CIDA colleagues may wish to comment further on, there has been much progress, with aid now being delivered safely by both sea and air into ports into Libya, into Tripoli.

On slide seven you'll see some figures on the Canadian contribution relative to the broader coalition total. These numbers simply update you from the last time I was able to speak with you.

Mr. Chair, I don't think I'll review all of the numbers. They're there. We continue to make contributions, and in fact our percentage of contributions has grown. We contribute 9% of the counteroffensive air sorties, 7% of all air-to-air refuelling sorties, 85% of maritime patrol aircraft, and 6% overall. Canada has expended approximately 600 laser-guided bombs in the process.

Under maritime forces there were 284 boardings for the coalition, seven of which came from Canada. HMCS Vancouver is now on station--when we last spoke, it was the Charlottetown--actively preventing pro-Gadhafi maritime forces from closing Misrata. Vancouver's continued presence ensures the delivery of vital humanitarian aid, and is indeed helping to establish the seaport in terms of its operations.

As you can see, Canada is more than pulling its weight militarily. Our ships and aircraft have had significant impact, successfully prosecuting targets that have been vetted extensively to minimize civilian casualties.

However, I would like to stress that we see our contribution as just one facet of a broader diplomatic and humanitarian effort to help the Libyan people. A sustainable peace cannot be achieved by military means alone.

but our forces have certainly contributed to the conditions required to move forward.

That ends my remarks.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, General.

I'm going to open it up to our first round of questioning, which will be for seven minutes.

Mr. Harris, you can kick us off.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for your presentations this morning to update us on what has happened since our meeting in August.

I would like to ask Ambassador McCardell, first of all, if she could outline the situation with respect to humanitarian aid and delivery of the same. Obviously, the situation is much different from what it was a month or so ago, with Tripoli now being in the hands of the NTC, diplomatic relations now being re-established, and a new interim government being recognized. I guess, in diplomatic terms, the Gadhafi regime doesn't exist as a regime in terms of governing Libya.

Can you tell me the nature of the current humanitarian needs, how they are being met, and what role Canada is playing in that? Are we using any of our assets, military or otherwise, to assist in the delivery of the same, and if so, to what extent?

Secondly, with respect to the governance issues, which are considerable, what is Canada bringing to the table to assist the NTC in developing the capability and the capacity to engage in governance and building? I know the UN resolution, which hasn't really been translated yet from last Friday, does talk about assisting the intellectual process. Is there a role that Canada is contemplating, and if there is not, then why not?

[Sandra McCardell]

Thank you.

I'll comment just briefly based on my experience and what I saw on the ground there. Then I will ask my colleague from CIDA to speak more broadly on the humanitarian situation, and my colleague from the stabilization and reconstruction task force to speak on Canada's role going forward.

In short, as I indicated a bit in my presentation, the situation on the ground has improved considerably, certainly in large parts of the country. I would exclude the areas of ongoing conflict in the south, where there is still difficulty in accessing the population. I'm speaking here of those areas under conflict: Bani Walid, Sirte, and Sabha. In Tripoli itself, a few days before we arrived, water was turned back on. That being done obviously relieves a considerable humanitarian concern we had. As well, the United Nations is present and was coming in, in a very significant fashion. They're standing up their mission on the ground again, and while I was there I was able to meet with representatives of UNHCR and IOM, the International Organization for Migration, who were in Tripoli assessing the situation for future support.

I can come back to the situation on the ground later on, but I think it's important that CIDA provide a broader perspective.

[Leslie E. Norton, Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance Directorate, Multilateral and Global Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency]

Thank you very much.

As noted by the ambassador, at the beginning of September the UN did re-establish its presence. They also stood up what they call a humanitarian country team, which assisted the UN in identifying humanitarian needs, and they did so through a 30-day action plan. Essentially they took the 18 May flash appeal, which is what the UN produces and develops to bring together all the humanitarian actors to have a humanitarian action plan, and extended it until September 30. Currently they're assessing needs. The UN will provide, in very short order—we expect by the end of September—a 90-day action plan.

The current humanitarian needs, as outlined in the plan, include water; protection for migrants; fuel to run basic things like electricity, water, and sanitation facilities; medical supplies and personnel; and there's an issue around some food and security. A large issue, of course, is the high level of explosive remnants of war—there's a certain amount of contamination—and there's also a deteriorating capacity of the communities who are most affected to cope day to day.

The 90-day action plan will probably focus on these elements. It will be from October to December, and we anticipate it will extend the existing flash appeal to round off the year. The focus, of course, is going to be on sustained and safe access to all in need, to reinforce capacity and preparedness, providing assistance to those who need it, and to support and develop institutions.

To go to the point of your question about what is Canada doing and what assets are we bringing to this, as you know, Canada has provided over $10.6 million in humanitarian assistance funding. The asset we have provided is funding. Our key partners include the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is one of the main actors in providing humanitarian assistance in country, as well as the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies; the IOM and UNHCR, who work on the borders to ensure that the migrant workers who have left, as well as refugees, are getting the assistance they need. That is also complemented by the work of the World Food Programme, both in and outside the country, as well as UNFPA, which is the UN Population Fund, and the Canadian Red Cross.

Thank you.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Are you going to address Canadian assistance on the governance issue, or will the ambassador?

Okay.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you.

Yes, we are indeed working in very close coordination with the UN, which is the main coordinator for this post-conflict assistance. We have been involved in discussions since the London meeting in June.

The first step, frankly, is to see the results of the assessment missions that will be largely coordinated by the United Nations to evaluate needs, in consultation with the NTC. The goal, obviously, is to establish an environment in Libya where the citizens of Libya can go back to a normal life and have an environment that is conducive to economic prosperity, which would also eventually be in the interests of our Canadian companies.

The ambassador mentioned that our Prime Minister is in New York at the moment. I think he is about to go into a meeting with the group called “Friends of Libya”. After that, there will be a meeting at the level of officials to discuss the stabilization of Libya, and we will be represented at that meeting.

For the moment, we are looking at options and expect to see soon—I think in the coming weeks—the results of these assessment missions before we make decisions on our contribution.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Mr. Harris. Your time has expired.

We'll continue with Mr. Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Actually, it's Mrs. Gallant's turn.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mrs. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and through you to our witnesses.

Ambassador, our soldiers just spent a decade routing al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan so that it would not be used as a launch pad for terrorism against North America. Now, with our air force and navy enforcing the no-fly zone in Libya to protect citizens from being murdered by its own government, it's been reported that al-Qaeda has been fighting with the rebels. How can Canadians be assured that our efforts in Libya have not inadvertently assisted al-Qaeda or other terrorist groups from using Libya as a launch pad for terrorism against the western world?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Ambassador McCardell.

[Sandra McCardell]

Thanks.

It is an important question. I think part of why we have taken such an interest in Libya and why this government has been committed to action in Libya.... Certainly our focus has been on the mandate of 1973 and the protection of civilians, but we've been fully aware of the strategic importance of Libya and the presence of al-Qaeda elements in the Maghreb, in the broader Sahel region. Certainly our interest in having a democratic government in place in Libya also relates to regional interests, beyond simply the concern we have for the Libyan civilians.

In our previous discussions I think we've certainly been clear that within the broader National Transitional Council there are groups that we would consider to have an Islamist trend. What we've said previously, and what we believe is still the case, is that these people represent part of the fabric of Libya but their influence is limited, and that the commitment of the NTC to a democratic transition has absolutely been clear from the beginning and, with their constitutional declaration, continues to be.

Certainly we would not support in any way al-Qaeda elements taking root in Libya and we do not see that this is the case. There are those within the Libyan government who have been part of Islamist movements in the past. They have not in any way demonstrated a stepping away from the democratic principles that the NTC has espoused. Certainly part of the reason why we have re-established our diplomatic presence on the ground is to have a better network of contacts in Libya, to have a better understanding of what's taking place, and to ensure that our role in establishing a democratic transition continues and that this is what takes place in that country.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

General Vance, we've heard that Canadian Forces accompanied Ambassador McCardell on her recent trip to Tripoli. Can you tell us if Canada has any boots on the ground, any Canadian Forces fighting on the ground? Do we intend to send Canadian Forces to Libya to help the National Transitional Council combat the remaining pockets of pro-Gadhafi militants? Down the road, do we have any intention to assist the new government with training their military or other security forces?

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

Thank you for the question.

First and foremost, I think it's important to realize that there aren't boots on the ground in the sense in which one would often describe boots on the ground. So no, we're not fighting on the ground. We did support the re-establishment of the mission in Tripoli with small numbers of forces to assist in the security of the ambassador and her assessment team and in airlift and transportation. We will continue to be at the disposal of the government to help re-establish the mission presence there.

As for future plans at this point in time, particularly given that the Prime Minister is at a high-level meeting today, future plans for the mission in terms of our contribution would be premature to discuss. We're prepared for any eventuality, of course. We do contingency planning all the time, but we are not anticipating an on-the-ground role at any point in the future.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure who best to direct this question to, but what incentive is there for Gadhafi to surrender if there is an international criminal code indictment against them? Is this indictment actually an impediment to finally getting him to come forward?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Ambassador?

[Sandra McCardell]

The best questions come to me.

Certainly I think we have seen through the last six and a half months of this that Gadhafi and those around him are determined to stay in power for, we've presumed, a variety of reasons: their own interests, the interests of those around them, their unwillingness to cede power, and the determination to protect themselves, regardless of the cost it has for their own people. We've seen a variety of reasons--or we can imagine a variety of reasons--why he would not surrender.

Even now, reduced to a small corner of Libya, he's still determined to remain in place, and again with no consideration for the damage he's doing to his country in the long term. Within that is the calculation of the ICC part of his thoughts; that would be into speculation on my part. There is certainly a demonstrated will for him to remain in place regardless, and we would be in a difficult position to assess what his thinking is on why he's staying in power.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

If Gadhafi is captured, how will he be brought to justice? Will he be tried in a domestic court or will he go first to the International Criminal Court? Does Libya even have the capacity yet to conduct a trial of this nature?

[Sandra McCardell]

I'm not sure if you want to speak to the statute of the ICC.

[Captain, Navy) Geneviève Bernatchez (Deputy Judge Advocate General, Operations, Department of National Defence]

Thank you for the question.

And thank you, Madame Ambassador.

As provided under the statue of the International Criminal Court, there would be a two-tier process. First Libya would be offered the opportunity to exercise its jurisdiction over the indicted person. But should Libya be unable or unwilling to do so, then the International Criminal Court could exercise its jurisdiction.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

You have 20 seconds left if you want to use it.