National Defence Committee on Feb. 13th, 2013

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Would he not have stronger grounds for saving those lives if the amendment contained in 18.5(3) is implemented?

[Peter Tinsley]

We don't seem to be communicating here. I've said to you that I have never witnessed military police officers or police officers who intentionally, for no good reason, put themselves in harm's way.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Tinsley, have you ever operated as a serving military member in a combat zone?

[Peter Tinsley]

If you consider Somalia a combat zone, I was deployed there.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Was it as a serving military officer on a combat mission?

[Peter Tinsley]

Did you hear me say Somalia? I was deployed there. I was the lead counsel in the Somalia trials.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Were Canadian Forces engaged in combat at that time?

[Peter Tinsley]

Well, it certainly was a danger zone.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Tinsley.

You've noted in your own biography, which I assume is from your own hand because it was on a Liberal Party website, that most notably you were a senior prosecutor and appellate counsel in the high-profile prosecutions of Canadian Forces members stationed in Somalia accused of murder and torture.

Would you consider that to have been the highlight of your career so far?

[Peter Tinsley]

I really don't understand the relevance of the question, but I would say to you that in fact, quite frankly, it was one of the low points in terms of the sadness of the events. None of us who lived through that, Mr. Alexander, were proud of it. We did what we had to do.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Do you consider it the most important work you've done so far?

[Peter Tinsley]

It was important in the sense that the public demanded an accounting and we provided that accounting.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Moving on to your role in the MPCC, whose mandate will be changed by these amendments, you initiated on February 9, 2007, an investigation and public hearings into serious allegations of the possible abuse of defenceless persons in CF custody. Two years later the finding was that there had been no abuse or mistreatment by Canadian Forces.

Is that correct?

[Peter Tinsley]

Which Afghanistan investigation was it, the public interest one?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It was the one in 2007 and 2008.

[Peter Tinsley]

Was it by hearing or by investigation?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm referring to your final report following a public interest investigation pursuant to section 250.38 of the National Defence Act, a complaint by Dr. Amir Attaran.

[Peter Tinsley]

Okay. Yes, indeed, at the end of that investigation....

I did commence that investigation. It was thoroughly conducted. There was no finding of mistreatment of the three Afghan prisoners involved. In fact, I think it could be interpreted that I complimented some of the military personnel involved for the quality of treatment that was received. In fact, there was one remark with respect to the receipt of an MRI within less than an hour, as I recall, and it was suggested that residents of Canada, citizens of Canada, would appreciate that quickness of treatment in their own medical facilities.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But you did review 5500 pages of evidence, witness interviews conducted by the CFNIS for 54 witnesses, and interview 34 people in your capacity as MPCC chair, through your investigators.

Was it worth the resources and time, given the results?

[Peter Tinsley]

In terms of public confidence, Mr. Alexander, I don't think a finding of no fault is necessarily the appropriate measure. As a matter of fact, I certainly don't think it's the appropriate measure.

As you would see from my resume, I was the director of the Ontario Special Investigations Unit for almost five years, and there were numerous investigations. In terms of percentages, criminal charges were only laid against police officers in approximately 5% to 7%, as I recall, of the investigations in question, but if you're suggesting to me that the devotion of public resources isn't required in the maintaining of public confidence, I beg to differ.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Tinsley, over that nearly two-year period, there was a doubt about whether abuses had been committed by military police. Do you not agree with that because you hadn't submitted your findings?

[Peter Tinsley]

Could you repeat your question in a less convoluted fashion?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

In 2007 and 2008, as you were compiling your findings, the fact of these hearings, their scale, and the level of media attention did create a doubt in the mind of the public about whether military police were treating detainees properly.

Are you aware of the fact that over the period when the people of Canada were awaiting the findings from your report, 62 Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I'll just say to Mr. Alexander that your time has expired, so, Mr. Tinsley, could you be brief in your comments?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I object to that question. They were during the same period. It is not in order to suggest that this witness carrying out an investigation under law had anything whatsoever to do with 62 Canadians dying.

During that whole entire period there were also all kinds of allegations being made as well, and we were very happy to see that there was something going on, that there was a proper investigation actually taking place, because this committee couldn't do it.

This is just argumentative. It has nothing to do with this business.