National Defence Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

We're going to have a briefing on the situation in Libya, and we're pleased to have with us today, from the Department of National Defence, Brigadier General Craig King, who is the director general of operations of the Strategic Joint Staff. We have Marius Grinius, who is the director general of international security policy. And joining us again is Captain Geneviève Bernatchez, the deputy judge advocate general of operations.

Joining us from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, we have Barbara Martin, the director general of the Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, and Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, who is the director general, stabilization and reconstruction task force.

I want to welcome all of you here.

I believe that Ms. Martin wanted to kick off with opening comments, so you have the floor.

[Barbara Martin, Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a great privilege to speak to you today, just a week after the historic events of October 20, and only days after the declaration of victory by the chair of the National Transitional Council, Abdul Jalil, on October 23.

His statement that day marks the end of the rule of Moammar Gadhafi, who eight months ago swore to fight his people to the last bullet. It also marks the beginning of a new chapter in Libyan history. Libyans are now paying tribute to those who gave their lives in this struggle and to those who were wounded, but they are also celebrating in a very typical Libyan way, shooting guns into the air. Our staff in Tripoli hunker down at times like this. What goes up must come down.

Canadians can be proud to have stood behind the NTC and the people of Libya from the start of this conflict. In fact, as Minister Baird has said, Canada has punched above its weight. We took a leadership role in ensuring the protection of civilians through NATO's Operation Unified Protector, and General Charles Bouchard has made us all proud with his successful leadership of this mission.

General Craig will speak to this issue momentarily.

While there has been much celebration in Libya and around the world, there have been questions about the circumstances surrounding Gadhafi's death. As a consequence, we welcomed chairman Jalil's announcement on October 24 that he is establishing a commission of inquiry into Gadhafi's death. This is an important step for a state that is seeking to be firmly based on the rule of law.

Preventing reprisals towards pro-Gadhafi Libyans, be they civilians or former combatants, has been a high priority for the NTC and must continue to be so. Freed from the shadow of the Gadhafi regime, the Libyan people now have the opportunity to begin, in earnest, down the road to democracy.

Under Libya's constitutional declaration developed last August, the next steps are clear. The NTC is to establish its presence in Tripoli, moving from Benghazi, and within 30 days the NTC will name a transitional government--that is, a cabinet. This will likely take place sooner than 30 days. Over the next three months, this transitional government or cabinet will issue an initial election law, name an electoral commission, and issue the call for elections for a new general national congress, or a Parliament.

These elections are to take place within 240 days. The general national congress will select a new Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister will name a temporary government. It will also appoint a constitutional committee to draft a new constitution to be submitted to the congress within two months of its appointment. Within one month after the development of the new constitution, after it's submitted to the congress, the draft constitution is to be put forward to the Libyan people in a referendum requiring two-thirds approval. Again, within a month of that, another election law is to be issued by the congress to govern elections that are to take place within six months to create a permanent government.

Overall, this process is likely to take more than a year or so. It's a very ambitious timetable, nonetheless, and there will be many bumps in the road. In many ways, what Libyans have achieved already, while impressive, was the easiest part. Their work to build a fully inclusive democracy for all, and from scratch, has only just begun.

Chairman Jalil's comments in his victory speech about marriage and about the place of Sharia law have invited comment both internationally and in Libya. It will be important to those who supported Libyans in their quest for freedom that women are not denied their full rights and protections. There's also a need to secure dangerous weaponry to ensure the safety of Libyan people and the stability of the region. Minister Baird made both of these points very clear to the NTC leadership during his visit to Tripoli two weeks ago.

The NTC has done a fair job so far in maintaining order, but it must still demobilize many of the militias that fought hard and bravely for a free Libya, including those in Tripoli, where different factions still guard different parts of the city. These men who sacrificed much will want their voices heard, and many will be seeking power in the new Libya.

Integrating the militia under one national command is another critical task. Further, to build national unity, there will be a need for a process of reconciliation to move towards general political pluralism and inclusion.

All Libyans, including youth and women, will want to contribute to a shared vision of their country and to help define a common understanding of democracy and citizenship in the new Libya. But the ambitious timeline for Libya's transition may make it difficult to ensure wide public consultations and promote national identity in a country where Gadhafi reigned by creating division for the last 42 years. The new government authorities also face high demands for a better quality of life, improved education, medical services, and employment opportunity. Expectations are rising quickly for a rapid improvement after four decades of stagnation.

The victory in Libya is extremely significant, not only for Libya, but also for the region as a whole. Consequently, Canada remains committed to supporting Libyans during their country's transition to democracy, just as we continue to support transitions under way in Tunisia and in Egypt. But ultimately, it is up to the citizens of those countries to choose their own future.

Canada has responded quickly over the last several months to support the new Libya. In August, we accredited the new Libyan chargé d'affaires appointed by the National Transitional Council, the NTC. In September, the Prime Minister attended a meeting of the Friends of Libya in Paris, as well as a high level meeting on Libya in New York.

The Prime Minister and Minister Baird met separately on the margins of these events with the Chair of the Executive Board of the National Transitional Council, Mahmud Jibril to discuss Canada's involvement.

In early September, Canada lifted its unilateral sanctions on Libya which had been imposed under the Special Economic Measures Act in order to make those funds available to the NTC.

After receiving approval from the United Nations, Minister Baird announced on September 13 that Canada would be unfreezing all Libyan assets held in Canada and Canadian institutions, frozen under United Nations resolutions. These assets are worth roughly $2.2 billion. The steps necessary to release the funds are complete and the National Transitional Council has begun issuing instructions concerning their release.

As you no doubt know, on September 16, the UN Security Council agreed, through resolution 2009, to establish the United Nations Support Mission in Libya, UNSMIL, under the leadership of Special Representative of the Secretary-General, Ian Martin.

The mission was mandated for an initial period of three months to support Libyan efforts to, among other objectives, restore public security and order, and promote the rule of law.

The resolution also eased—not lifted—the sanctions imposed under UNSC resolutions, including by easing the arms embargo to allow, for example, items intended for security and disarmament assistance to the Libyan authorities.

The UN mission personnel quickly established itself on the ground in Tripoli and prepared to assist. However, the NTC requested that work only move forward once an interim government is in place. They want to ensure that the process is in fact Libyan-led, and that they remain in the driver's seat. However, this has presented a challenge to the UN mission's ability to deliver Libyan-led assessments on the original timeline. It will likely be some time before tangible multilateral projects can be implemented, and it is very likely that the mission will need to be extended.

For our part, Canada will align its assistance with the framework agreed with the NTC and will respond to its requests.

In Tripoli two weeks ago, Minister Baird observed first-hand the significant progress achieved since his trip to Benghazi in June. In Tripoli he reiterated Canada's ready support for Libyans to enjoy what they have so long craved: freedom, democracy, and respect for human rights and the rule of law. He outlined the post-conflict support Canada can provide. He announced a Canadian contribution of $10 million in assistance to secure and remove conventional weapons and weapons of mass destruction, a priority of the NTC and the international community.

He also offered to provide technical assistance, if requested, for constitution-drafting, elections, and human rights, particularly to support the role of women. He led a round table of NGOs, with the participation of a Canadian NGO, on the important role women should play in the new Libya.

The minister was accompanied by four Canadian business organizations already active in Libya and ready to re-establish contact with their Libyan partners. Trade and investment form a critical dimension of Canada's relationship with Libya, and over the years Canadian companies have built a significant presence in that market, some having been there for over 30 years. The embassy is currently staffed and can now provide full services to Canadians in Libya, including support for Canadian companies.

It's important to bear in mind that Libya is not a poor country. Its oil wealth is a foundation for the building that must take place. Already oil production is back to slightly less than 25% of what it was in pre-conflict levels.

In closing, I'd like to say that the Libyan revolution that started in February has been a march to liberty requiring great courage and sacrifice, and Canada pays tribute to the Libyan people.

I would be happy to respond to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Ms. Martin.

General King, would you bring us your opening comments?

[Brigadier-General Craig King, Director General, Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to brief you on Operation MOBILE, Canada's military contribution to the international effort to respond to the crisis in Libya.

You will recall that NATO's Operation Unified Protector and Canada's Operation MOBILE were initiated in response to United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973, enforcing the arms embargo on Libya and protecting civilians and civilian-populated areas through the creation of a no-fly zone over Libya.

Canada's contribution consists of seven CF-18 fighter aircraft, two CP-140 Aurora maritime patrol aircraft, two CC-150 Polaris and one CC-130 Hercules refueling aircraft, and of course HMCS Vancouver. In total, approximately 630 Canadian Forces personnel are participating in the mission. And as Barbara has mentioned, significantly, NATO's Operation Unified Protector has been under the command of our own Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard.

I would like to take this opportunity to update you on recent events since you were last briefed. Since September 20, 2011, events in NATO, Canada, and Libya have moved quickly. NATO extended Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR for 90 days on September 21. On September 26, the Canadian mission to Libya was extended for an additional 90 days, in line with the NATO extension.

Since then, events on the ground in Libya have moved rapidly. The Gadhafi stronghold of Bani Walid fell on October 17, along with the city of Sirte on October 20. On the same day as the fall of Sirte, Colonel Gadhafi was killed, along with members of his regime leadership. These events marked the end of the pro-Gadhafi forces as an organized military force and led the National Transitional Council to declare Libya liberated this past Sunday.

With the National Transition Council forces now in control of Libya, the threat of organized attacks against civilians has diminished greatly and conditions have been set for the termination of NATO's mandate.

In response to these developments, NATO has suspended all air strike operations in Libya and continues to monitor the situation. On October 21, the North Atlantic Council took a preliminary decision to terminate the mission Unified Protector on October 31. This termination date will be discussed at the next North Atlantic Council meeting, scheduled for tomorrow, and we are expecting a decision at that time. Canadian Forces elements remain deployed in theatre pending the results of these discussions and subsequent Government of Canada direction.

The Canadian Forces are proud of the contributions we have made to NATO and to the Libyan people. Royal Canadian Air Force aircraft have flown approximately 1,500 sorties in support of Operation Unified Protector and Operation MOBILE, enforcing the no-fly zone and protecting Libya's population. Royal Canadian Navy ships enforced the arms embargo and prevented reinforcement of the pro-Gadhafi forces and of arms shipments by sea.

Canadian Forces are proud to have been part of this mission and of the role they have performed in allowing the Libyans to chart a better future for their country.

We are ready to answer any questions you may have at this time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, General King.

We're all very proud of the work that the Canadian Forces have done covering Libya.

We'll start with our seven-minute round.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Brahmi.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay.

Mr. Brahmi, you have seven minutes.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to specifically thank the witnesses for making things clear. I would like to thank them for their time.

We are very proud of and grateful to the Canadian Forces for the outstanding work they did on this mission, which was a success. We are particularly pleased to celebrate it. We specifically acknowledge the role our forces have played in maintaining the arms embargo, which is crucial in terms of this conflict spreading to neighbouring countries.

On that note, I would like us to look at an issue that is generally of great concern in the region. It has to do with arms being distributed right and left, as we know. I am thinking of Algeria, for example. Algeria's border with Libya is a sieve for large quantities of weapons.

I am not sure who is going to answer, but I would like our guests to clarify the current situation of unrestricted weapons, especially the SA-7 and SA-24 surface-to-air missiles, which are very dangerous for commercial flights, for example.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Ms. Gervais-Vidricaire, the floor is yours.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank the member for this question.

There are in fact a huge number of weapons in Libya. Mr. Ian Martin, the special representative of the secretary general, held an information session yesterday at the Security Council. And he pointed out that there were huge amounts of weapons in Libya. I think the announcement made by Minister Baird during his visit about the $10-million contribution to secure, control or destroy those weapons is timely. There is a consensus that it is a priority for the security of Libya and the region.

That is why we are developing a program. On the one hand, $6 million will come from our Global Partnership Program. The $6 million will help us work together with our American and British partners, as well as with international organizations, such as the International Atomic Energy Agency and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. The first objective is to bring security to the country and to destroy those weapons of mass destruction.

On the other hand, $4 million will come from our global peace and security fund and will be used for conventional weapons, for mine clearance and for MANPADS, air-defence systems that is. There are actually thousands of MANPADS; it really is a concern.

So we are going to work with the UN Mine Action Service and reputable local NGOs that have already started mine clearance operations. In terms of controlling and eliminating MANPADS, we are in talks with our American partners in particular, but also with the United Nations. The UN coordinates everything in order to see where our contribution would make the biggest difference.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

That's good.

In terms of control, how are roles shared between the Canadian Forces, or Canada in general, NATO and the UN? How are responsibilities shared?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

My colleague form the Department of National Defence talked about their contribution, but all those issues are certainly coordinated by the UN as they have already acknowledged the extent of the problem.

A certain amount of time will be needed to assess the needs. At the same time, we have identified some urgent needs. That is why we want to move as quickly as possible, together with those who are already on the ground and who have already started the mine clearance operations, so that they can move faster. We have found a lot of mines and weapons in Syrte and Bani Walid in particular.

The Canadian programming I was talking about will be done with our partners and the United Nations.

I will now yield the floor to the representative from the Department of National Defence so that he can share his point of view with you.

[BGen Craig King]

Thank you very much.

That's a good question. I will answer in my mother tongue.

The Canadian Forces has not received any request to assist in the process that Marie has described. We're aware of the situation. If a request came, we would consider where the Canadian Forces would contribute best to the programs that are ongoing under the auspices of the United Nations.

Having said that, the programs that Marie described are not ones that require particular military expertise to execute. Things such as de-mining have been going on in operational theatres around the world and in places such as Bosnia under the auspices of civilian organizations. In some cases it's better to do it that way, so that there is not an appearance of a foreign military force on the terrain.

Our understanding at this stage is that the National Transitional Council prefers it that way; there is no intention, as we understand it, that there be a request coming forward for western military forces to perform any kind of task along these lines on the ground in Libya. But if a request did come, we would certainly consider it.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Norlock, it's your turn.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

And to our witnesses, thank you very much for appearing this morning.

Today is our briefing on Libya, but this committee is also engaged on a very significant study with regard to preparedness. My question will be based on that study, but also on talking about our Libyan experience.

Of course we heard and we know that Canada once again punched above our weight, and we performed a significant role in Libya. My questions will be on the lessons learned, the areas we have excelled in, the areas in which we may need to make adjustments to operational planning and execution. The context would be in terms of lessons learned not only by Canada but also by NATO. I wonder, General King, whether you could expand on that.

[BGen Craig King]

Thanks very much for the question. It's an excellent one, and it's one that certainly preoccupies someone like me in my current job.

Before addressing some of the specifics there, I will say that in terms of lessons learned as a matter of process, it is quite normal for us to go through a very formal review process. I believe you might have been exposed to this when you were out in Wainwright as part of your committee deliberations, but there is a sort of line.

We have a doctrine that governs how we conduct operations, effectively how we go about fighting. This doctrine is developed in relation to current events, current nature of warfare, and current nature of operations we find ourselves in. We study that doctrine, we train for that doctrine, and then we execute that doctrine in a theatre of operations, after which we take the time to develop the lessons learned from that. We are actually in that process now of discerning those specific lessons learned. The idea is that once you get those lessons learned, you feed them back into your doctrine so that not only are we're taking account of the lessons we've learned but our doctrine remains relevant, it remains an effective reflection of the operating environment. That process is ongoing now. It's occurring at a variety of levels. General Bouchard, when we had a video teleconference earlier this week, indicated that they are doing that within NATO. We at the Canadian Forces are undertaking that. We've had an initial review, and we'll finalize this in the coming months.

When we do lessons learned, we try to find those things that we want to reinforce, as well—it's not that everything's bad. Then we want to find new areas where we have to perhaps show some improvement. The way this operation came about, it happened very quickly. Our readiness levels will be discussed, as you made reference to, and I believe there will be further discussions with this committee with people who are responsible for that aspect of our force management. I'll leave some of the detail of that for your further deliberations. Certainly what we had reinforced with us is that with the posture we were on when the call came, we were able to anticipate, and we responded within a matter of days.

Now, when you respond that quickly, there are things that need to be improved, and we've identified those as a matter of command and control within the Canadian Forces. But I have to say, in terms of our responsiveness, that we were very pleased with the speed with which we responded strategically and operationally, and we were able to put forces into theatre and within days of arrival, executing operations in support of the UN Security Council resolutions.

On the more tactical level, the other thing we've discerned is, again, the tremendous capability and fighting effectiveness of our airmen and our sailors who were deployed on this mission. It's through the professionalism and the training of our pilots that they were able to execute very difficult missions under very demanding circumstances. They did that with alacrity, and full credit goes to them for any kudos that are due. It's the same thing with our maritime forces. The two vessels, HMSC Charlottetown and HMSC Vancouver, did a tremendous job in terms of working up, being prepared for their mission, and executing again under very difficult circumstances.

There were some things we've done there that would not be appropriate to discuss in this round, which had to do with the execution of our mission, our targeting processes and what not, which we are constantly reviewing and discussing. We've learned a lot of lessons there that we would apply to future missions. If you want to take a similar look in time between say an operation like Kosovo and what we've just completed in Libya, the reaction time was much more compressed. The circumstances we were operating under in terms of how we structured the mission were different, and we've learned a lot of valuable lessons that will be captured as part of our lessons learned process.

Sorry for the long answer, but it's an interesting question. Forgive me. I have a little bit of passion here.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Well, I would hope you do, frankly.

This is just for a little bit of context, although it's a much broader context. I think it feeds into your statement about our preparedness and how quickly we were able to get involved and to begin to execute the mission. It was a program I was watching last night on TVO with regard to the whole Middle East. Of course there was some mention of Libya in that and of the fact that, unlike some of the countries that are experiencing the march towards democracy—as I like to refer to it—Libya has the ability to sustain itself in regard to its financial position, and Madam Martin referred to this.

We talked about how quickly we responded. Perhaps even someone else on the panel of witnesses could respond. Do you see the need for Canada to be able to respond in such a quick manner, and is that part of your preparedness, the ability for Canada to take on these roles that are requested of it through the United Nations and/or NATO?

[BGen Craig King]

Thanks, sir. Maybe what I can do is just address the military portion of that and invite Barbara to make any accompanying comments.

Our responsibility as a military force is to be able to respond to direction that we receive from the Government of Canada, based on the requirements to participate in operations to enforce the goals of our country, and we maintain that posture. Part of that is kind of twofold. One is that we have to make sure the military forces are prepared, and we have an elaborate system of going through that, and again, you will hear more about that. But also it goes to our monitoring and being able to anticipate—being able to anticipate events globally and being able to anticipate the kinds of things our government may be requiring us to do.

In the post-Libyan-conflict environment, we are maintaining a very careful watch on events there. I hope you got a sense of that through Barbara's discourse at the start. We are very carefully monitoring the situation; it's a very complex environment. The Canadian Forces, along with our whole-of-government partners, are in regular consultation for the sorts of contingencies that may apply to that region. Hopefully you'll be assured that this monitoring, surveillance, and readiness to be able to execute are being maintained.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Mr. McKay, it's your turn.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming this morning.

I want to add my voice, on behalf of the Liberal Party, in congratulating the military on a mission well done.

The point of any military mission, particularly in a responsibility-to-protect mission, is the projection of one's values. In this particular case, the value was that we as a civilized nation will not stand around and watch another nation slaughter its own people, regardless of the issues of sovereignty. In that respect, because the military mission was so well executed, Canada gained a bully pulpit, for want of a better term, and an opportunity to speak into the formation of values in Libya.

The first event post-conflict was this very bizarre exercise with the death of Mr. Gadhafi. The means of his death was bizarre, first of all saying it was crossfire, then it appeared to be assassination, then it appeared to be torture prior to assassination, and then we had this even more bizarre spectacle of his body being displayed over a number of days, which I believe offends Islamic traditions. Yet Canada did not use its authority—hard-won authority—gained by the military to speak loudly and clearly into that obvious breach of the rule of law.

We're off to a bad start. If this thing keeps up, this Arab spring may well turn into an Arab winter. You hate to think so, but you would like to think that the military mission not only accomplished something but will accomplish something in the long term.

My first question has to do with why it is that Canada, particularly the Minister of Foreign Affairs, but the Prime Minister as well, didn't speak to the NTC in particular, to Jalil in particular, loud, long, and hard that this is unacceptable behaviour and that it needs to be reined in and reined in quickly?

The second question has to do with what resources the Government of Canada is prepared to put up with respect to any inquiry there may be. One would not wish to have this inquiry as a pseudo inquiry, a fake inquiry, a predetermined-outcome inquiry, if in fact we are hopefully encouraging the people of Libya to go on towards the rule of law. I'd be interested in your comments.

The third question, directed to Brigadier-General King and Ms. Martin, is that there is some discussion as to whether Canada will be asked to extend its mission. If so, what would be the conditions of extension? I don't think we want to be in a situation where we're just supervising egregious breaches of the rule of law.

I appreciate that's a bit of a complex question, but to me these are the issues that need to be resolved. As you transition from a military mission to an aid and diplomacy mission, it's just as important to get it right; otherwise all your efforts are wasted.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Before we start off the first question that Mr. McKay asked, I'll just read out of O'Brien and Bosc.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That would be charming.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We have before excused public servants from answering questions that relate to their relationship with their ministers.

On page 1068 in chapter 20 it says:

Particular attention is paid to the questioning of public servants. The obligation of a witness to answer all questions put by the committee must be balanced against the role that public servants play in providing confidential advice to their Ministers. The role of the public servant has traditionally been used in relation to the implementation and administration of government policy, rather than the determination of what that policy should be. Consequently, public servants have been excused from commenting on the policy decisions made by the government.

Essentially, we aren't expecting you to answer what ministers or the Prime Minister did or said, or what they didn't say. So I'll just put that out there and then ask you to answer.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That's very helpful, Mr. Chair. You didn't take that off my time, I hope.