National Defence Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

We are doing things. We are in the process of looking at what it is that we could do relatively quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Chisu.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, thank you for your presentations.

I would like to commend the Canadian Forces on their role in Libya. The leadership of General Bouchard demonstrated the application of our Canadian values. We must be proud of this, and I am expressing my pride on this as a former serviceman. We have done everything to avoid civilian casualties and we defended the civilians of Libya.

I have a question to the general. Can you inform the committee of all the resources Canada currently has allocated to the mission in Libya, both in terms of personnel and materiel? Has this number decreased? Are there any remaining requirements or requests from NATO or the NTC for continued Canadian monitoring and surveillance, or advice on potential counter-insurgency operations? We have seen what has been happening in Iraq; we have the bombings in Afghanistan, whose perpetrators have travelled from one country to another. How will Libya avoid this kind of counter-insurgency operation?

I have another question for Ms. Barbara Martin. Can you explain the role of the United Nations support mission in Libya? I have had some doubts concerning how you presented this one. Are they not in good relations with the NTC, or is something happening? Maybe you can elaborate on that.

The third one is the de-mining operation that you mentioned and how the money.... Who has the lead on this one? Do you have any oversight on the part of the military to be sure that the money allocated to de-mining is going to d-mining operations and not anywhere else?

Being a former engineer, I will ask these questions for sure.

[BGen Craig King]

Thank you, sir. It's good to see you again.

With respect to your first question, on resources, I would just refer back to my opening statement. In the Royal Canadian Navy, HMCS Vancouver, there were about 275 personnel deployed on that vessel. In the air operations, the fighters that we have, the seven CF-18s, the two maritime patrol aircraft, and the Polaris and the Hercules tankers that we have been using, and then we have about 80-odd people, so that is about another 275 folks there. And about 80 folks are engaged in various levels of headquarters, inside of NATO, and for national requirements. That's about 630 folks. But it was largely the Royal Canadian Air Force and Royal Canadian Navy contributions to the mission.

In terms of asks for surveillance in response to NATO or the NTC, no, sir, we have not received any requests along those lines. All of the efforts we have applied have been within the context of Operation Unified Protector, and when that mission terminates then our assets will be re-deployed according to direction from the Government of Canada.

The last point you raised is a very interesting one on counter-insurgency operations. I would just say very quickly that in order for an insurgency to exist, you have to have popular support of some kind, and it has to be coalesced around some kind of leadership. We're not anticipating that, and certainly the former regime has no legitimacy or credibility that would lend itself to an insurgency for which we would have to apply a counter-insurgency operation.

So that would be my response to the first part of your question, sir. I will turn it over to Barbara for the rest.

[Barbara Martin]

I would just like to say that I did not intend to leave the impression that there were not good relations between the UN representative in Tripoli and the NTC. There are excellent relations between him and the NTC. The challenge is that the NTC itself is in a tremendous situation of flux as it is seeking to appoint its new cabinet, and therefore the proper interlocutors for the UN mission were simply not in place. That should be happening over the course of the next few weeks.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

On the de-mining side, we are looking at $400,000 that would go to the UN Mine Action Services. That would be for that UN organization to provide expertise and advice to the Libyan authorities to set up their own mechanism to deal with de-mining. In addition, we are going to make a contribution of $2 million to two international NGOs that are specialized in de-mining. I know that in the case of Mines Advisory Group, the MAG, it is already de-mining in Libya. We have worked with it in Afghanistan in other contexts. The second NGO is the Swiss Foundation for Mine Action, again a very well-known organization in the area of de-mining, a very solid partner. We have worked with them in the past, so we are sure that if we give them money, it will be used for de-mining, not anything else.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Christopherson, go ahead sir.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that.

Thank you, guests, very much.

I am fairly new to this committee, so I'm just getting up to speed but very much appreciate the briefing this morning, like others. I think we need to say it is understood that it is unanimous—every one of us is very proud of the professionalism of our armed forces, and we all have respect for fellow citizens who don that uniform and step into harm's way on our behalf. We can fight like hell about the politics of missions and things in this place, but when it comes to those officers and those Canadians who are out there, we're all united in appreciating their efforts. Through you, we wish to say thanks.

If I can, I would like to pick up on going forward. It's suggested, Ms. Martin, that we may need to extend the mission, and of course that would be re-defined.

And let me say, Chair, that I totally respect the read-out that you did at the beginning, and I understand why.

I have total respect for the fact that there are lines, General, that you can't cross in terms of your comments to the minister, and I accept that.

Still, I would ask first off what sorts of military objectives still remain, given the new reality in Libya, above and beyond training transitional support. Or is that the extent of it? I'd like a bit of a short list of some of the military objectives going forward that you would see as potential components of a mission, were you to recommend to the minister and the minister to recommend to Parliament that we indeed have an extension.

[Barbara Martin]

Could I just clarify one point? My reference to the extension of the mission was to the UN stabilization mission in Libya, which is not the NATO mission Operation Unified Protector.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. So I can be clear, then, is that to say that there is not a consideration for an extension of any kind of military mission, and that anything going forward would be something other than that?

[BGen Craig King]

It's difficult to respond, because there's quite a lot of speculation. I guess, sir, I could probably respond best in terms of the principles.

Clearly we are in a situation, if we go back to the genesis of Unified Protector and Operation Mobile, of an external agency—NATO, in this case—having a mandate to come in and protect Libyan civilians from the stated designs of their own regime. Clearly that is not a situation that anybody would want to see perpetuated for long. The mission has had the effect of reinforcing the Security Council resolutions, and that's all good. But clearly the position we need to get to is that security for Libya, in all of its dimensions, has been the responsibility of the National Transitional Council initially, and eventually a political process of representation, election, and democracy we hope will result in the Libyans taking ownership of this, as Barbara has mentioned.

That will require a professional military force to manage external threats, which is why a military force exists, and internal security forces along the lines of a police force that is professional, credible, and respected within the country.

Beyond those things, I think in your question you said that's the essential element in all of its dimensions. The pronouncements of the National Transitional Council at this stage indicate that it is heading in that direction. There will be a lot of work to be done. And there are allies of Libya that are already in discussions to assist in that process, particularly with respect to training the police, with respect to professionalizing the military. That is something that needs to be encouraged, and it will take time, as well, to build that.

But the immediate issue, from my standpoint—having had some experience in the Croatian civil war, in Bosnia, and in places like that, where we were in a transitional period—is that the reconciliation process has to be the first order of business, I would offer to you, sir. And how is that going to be managed? And then it has to be the Libyans who determine whatever assistance is required to aid in that process and to eventually get them on their feet, where they can take ownership and manage their external and internal security affairs.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you

Mr. Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to add my thanks to everybody. It's important to have the two serving members on this panel, and I'm very pleased, but I'd also like to thank our civilian friends who are here today, because you do tremendous work out there and it's oftentimes overlooked. You're very professional, and I'm hearing from your answers today that you have a tremendous depth of knowledge of what's going on on the ground. We're very appreciative of your sharing that with us today.

General, you're a psychic. I was going to ask you about lessons learned from your other missions.

[BGen Craig King]

I've been called a lot of things....

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That was on my mind, because we did talk about lessons learned from this mission, and we have in previous sessions talked about lessons learned from Afghanistan, and so forth. But all of these lessons learned came from somewhere. You talked about Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, and places like that, places you've been. Can you make that comparison between what you experienced on the ground then and what you see now, given the difference that we don't have boots on the ground here?

[BGen Craig King]

Right. Thanks, sir; that's a good question. I appreciate your invitation to provide my personal reflections. I'm always sort of careful when I do so, because I've fulfilled a number of jobs over the years.

When I was in Croatia, for example, as part of the United Nations force with the 2nd Battalion of my regiment I was a company commander, so I was seeing things from a very tactical perspective. We were in a very difficult environment, in particular the Medak pocket, where atrocities occurred. That has reinforced to me the absolute need for professionalism among military forces to prevent these kinds of things from happening.

At the same time, I was discouraged to hear the news of what happened to Mr. Gadhafi, as Barbara recounted. I was also very much encouraged to hear the public statements of the NTC on where they want to take their nation; the importance of the rule of law; the professionalization of their forces; and the language of unity and reconciliation in the statement on liberation day, Sunday, by the chairman of the NTC.

From my own personal reflections, having been through the experience in Croatia and seeing the ground in Libya, I'm hopeful. I really am. I think the Libyans, the National Transitional Council, and eventually the government they elect have to be given the opportunity and time to put those words into practice and be given the counsel that we have from the experiences we've had.

I would also say that it's a long process. We need to be prepared that it will go on for a time. When I was in Bosnia in the early part of the last decade, it took about four years before the police force in the particular cantons where I was situated was at a standard where it could go out and be a credible force in enforcing the laws of the country. So in terms of lessons learned that I've taken, we're on a journey here and we're only at the starting stages.

All the things Barbara has described about the challenges, and all of the programs that have to be put in place and managed through the auspices of a number of actors, are going to take time. In the initial stages--notwithstanding some stutters with things that happened on the ground there that everyone laments--the public statements being made are encouraging. For that reason I'm hopeful, as I'm sitting now at a strategic level.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

As far as professionalizing their military, we can send in civilian police and groups like that, but just staying with the military for a moment, do you think we have a role to play in helping them professionalize--helping their forces learn and understand the military ethos as we understand it? Obviously it has to be in a context that relates to Libya. But do you see that as a process where we could use our Canadian Forces education system to benefit them and help lay down the foundations in an academic environment?

[BGen Craig King]

You raise a good point, sir. The Canadian Forces has a lot of capacity. But the last time I was in front of the committee I was talking about some of my experiences in Afghanistan, just as we were talking about the security force development. My own personal experience is that if you're talking about civilian police forces, it is best done civilian police force to civilian police force. Once you add a military aspect you kind of shade what police forces are all about, which is enforcing the laws of a country. A military component is something else.

So we do manage it, and sometimes we fulfill that role in the absence of any other alternative. But we've been careful to say that it is best done by the civilian authorities and experts.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Mr. Kellway.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Martin, in your presentation on page 7 you mention Canada aligning its assistance with the framework agreed with the NTC. I wonder if you can provide us with more details about that framework and what it is, in fact.

[Barbara Martin]

If I might, I'd like to defer to Marie, as it is her responsibility for that area.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sure.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I think what we have in mind is the framework of cooperation through the United Nations. I have referred to the various assessment missions that will happen between now and the end of this year. The main point is for the Libyans to identify clearly what their needs are. Once we know that, the international community will see how to address these needs and Canada will look at doing its part.

When we refer to a framework, it's the combination of all these assessments that will be done with the Libyans, so that we know what they want. They are in the lead in this process. We cannot decide for them.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much.

I take it then there is no bilateral agreement between Canada and the NTC with respect to how things will unfold in Libya over the next period of time.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

No. There were conversations, though, especially when Minister Bairdwas in Tripoli to discuss what Canada was ready to do on the weapons side of things. He also referred to the fact that we are ready to support the electoral process and the constitutional discussions and the participation of women. That was something that was difficult in particular, but there’s no bilateral agreement or such.