National Defence Committee on Jan. 29th, 2015

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Minister. That's your time, Mr. Dewar, please.

Folks, we're going to take a momentary technical time out to correct a glitch in our digital data. As soon as I'm advised that we're back, we'll proceed with this round of questioning.

I would remind members to maintain civility in their questioning of the ministers, and would thank them for allowing the ministers to respond. I think what we've just seen, Mr. Dewar, was a fairly fulsome question on your part.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It was, but it was a direct question without a direct answer.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

We are now back, so we'll proceed with the second round of questioning.

Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for being here.

I don't know what my car is going to cost to run next year until I'm finished, so I would suggest we won't know what the cost of a war is going to be until we're finished.

I want to go back to a couple of comments to follow up. We can split semantic hairs all day long, but Minister Nicholson, when we assign the military a mission—and General Lawson, pipe up if you wish—do we babysit them every day or do we trust their experience, judgment, and professionalism, for which the Canadian military have been known for so long, to get the job done and do it right?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You made a very good point. Nobody does a better job than the Canadian Armed Forces when they are deployed outside this country. Whether it is this mission, or all the previous engagements that this country has been involved with, we can all be very proud. It's one of the reasons why I am so proud to be Canada's Minister of National Defence, to be associated with our Canadian Armed Forces, and their record of standing up for what's right in this world and coming to the assistance of those whose freedom has been threatened, and to those who are feeling oppression. We have a record that is as good as anybody's in the world. Nobody has a better record than we have of doing that.

So, this is exactly what we are doing. Yes, we have confidence. I have confidence in our men and women who are deployed right now in Kuwait as part of the air strike force, our special forces. I have that confidence, and I believe that I'm with just about all Canadians who say they support and are very proud of the record they have and what they are doing.

If the General has anything to add....

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Thank you.

I need to say that the orders I gave to our members in the operation right now were developed based on a very clear understanding through a discussion process with the government on what exactly the government is approving. That was an advise and assist role, which is a non-combat mission.

A combat mission is very different, but as has been pointed out, actions like combat can appear in any mission, very much to the members involved. Our peacekeepers over recent decades came under fire. It would be tough to convince them that they didn't feel as if they were in combat. That notwithstanding, a combat mission is very different. It would see us directing our fire power against ISIL, which is not what we have the mandate to do.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

So a sniper's individual rounds would not fall under the category of a firefight. Would that be true?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

I don't believe we have a doctrinal determination of a firefight. I've just been thinking about your question. I'm not sure of that. It doesn't fall into the definition of a combat mission.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Minister Baird, the kinetic air and ground operation against Daesh is important, as is the humanitarian aid that we're providing right now. Ultimately and hopefully, the fighting will stop and we'll get on to more political and diplomatic solutions.

Can you talk a little about how we're engaged diplomatically in Iraq right now to build that capacity?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Our bilateral relationship with Iraq has been strengthened considerably in the last two years. I visited Baghdad about two years ago. I met with my counterpart, with the Iraqi Prime Minister, and a number of representatives of the government and Parliament. Our ambassador has been there for more than a year now. He has strengthened the relationship with Iraq considerably as the situation has become demonstrably more complex in recent years. We have a physical presence now, which we didn't have in the past, and he obviously makes a lot of visits to Erbil.

We have made it a country of focus for development, which I think is important. I think one of the most important parts of tackling the problem in Iraq is ensuring that the central government in Baghdad is truly representative of the entire population. Inclusiveness is tremendously important. I think one of the real tragedies with ISIL is that there was such a strong degree of dissatisfaction, particularly among the Sunni minority, with the central government in Baghdad, that it found some fertile ground. An inclusive government, a government with an inclusive program is tremendously important.

That's not just the case with the Sunnis but also with the Kurds. Because the Kurds have the KRG, the Kurdish Regional Government, they have an institution with which to have a relationship with the central government in Baghdad. The deputy prime minister and the minister of finance are both Kurds. So good progress has been made there. I think they've begun to make good progress with respect to the Sunni minority. This is absolutely essential, and we regularly engage with senior officials in the Iraqi government to work collectively with the United States, with European countries, and with our Arab allies in this effort, particularly in the Sunni Arab world, to press this. It is tremendously important. I think the new government in Iraq has welcomed Canada's active role and engagement.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister. We're going to have to cut you off there. We're out of time.

Thank you, Mr. Hawn.

We move back over to Madam Laverdière for five minutes.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Nicholson, you are talking about our evolving role on the ground. That evolution does not seem to be forced by the situation in the field. This shift in our involvement is very worrisome.

We are now accompanying Iraqi forces, although the Prime Minister clearly stated, on September 30, 2014, that accompanying the Iraqi forces on the ground was out of the question. We are suddenly learning that some of our soldiers spend 20% of their time on the front lines. We are also learning that some of our troops are exchanging fire with the enemy, and Canada is the only country to have that kind of involvement. Even the U.S. is systematically avoiding that sort of conflict.

Minister, do you expect our involvement to continue to evolve? Do you have any other surprises in store for us?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Madam, I want to assure you that we want to see an evolution of what's happening there because we want the Iraqi forces to be successful. When we first arrived there, in many instances there was chaos and disorganization within the Iraqi forces. They needed help in so many different areas. I'll just give you one example, the use of military equipment. They needed training in that area and if I'm asked whether they evolved so that now they can use that military equipment, I can tell you, yes, they can. They're in a much better position than they were a few months ago and we have our special forces to thank for that. Do I hope they continue to evolve? Yes, of course, I want them to. I'm hoping you would be onside with that.

We want them to be successful. We want them to continue to take back their own territory, consolidate the areas that they have now and continue to push back ISIL, because this is a measure of the success that we will have in this fight against this terrorist organization. We all have a stake in this, and yes, we do want the Iraqis to continue to improve their ability to protect themselves because ultimately this is a fight that has to be won on the ground by the Iraqis. Yes, I certainly hope they continue to improve.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstood my question.

My question was about the evolution of the mandate, which goes against the motion adopted by the House of Commons and the Prime Minister's assurances. You have not returned before Parliament to debate that motion again. I am talking about the fact that our troops are on the front lines and exchanging fire, and that Canada is the only country in that situation.

Minister, what worries us is this lack of transparency.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't comment on what other countries in particular are doing, but we were before Parliament and the main component of that, quite frankly, were the air strikes that we are involved with. I've indicated to you that we have approximately 600 Canadian members of the armed forces who are in support of those air strikes. I have been very impressed by their effectiveness. Those are the reports. I had the honour of representing my colleague here in London with the foreign affairs ministers of the coalition last week in London. We heard it from everyone, from the Iraqi Prime Minister to others, that the coalition is being effective in containing and pushing back ISIL from where they're at.

We've come before Parliament.... I appreciate this didn't happen under some administrations. They didn't put, for instance, the Afghanistan war before Parliament. But we felt very strongly about that. We appreciated getting the endorsement of the House of Commons on that. I believe it's a reflection of how Canadians feel about the importance of this and the threat not just to the region—we talk a lot about the threat right within Iraq—but to Canada and its allies, which I believe helps motivate everyone in this important mission.

Yes, most of the discussion was with respect to the air strikes and that's exactly what we're doing.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Madam Laverdière. That's your time.

We will move now to Mr. Williamson, please, for five minutes.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Chairs.

Ministers, Monsieur Jean, and General Lawson, thank you for joining us today. It's very good to hear from all of you.

I'll get to a question in a second, but first I want to take issue with some comments that Mr. Garneau made off the top in suggesting that the Liberal Party and his Liberal colleagues support the efforts of our Canadian Armed Forces in this mission. They do not. They voted against the mission when it came before Parliament.

Now, I concede that no member of Parliament wants to see any harm befall our men and women in uniform, but to suggest that you're in support of what's happening in this area is false. We had a vote on this in Parliament. If you wish to recant your vote or use an opposition day to vote on this again, that's your prerogative. But when I go home, I'm responsible for the votes I take in Parliament on any issue across the board, and I'm held accountable by my electorate. Going forward, the same thing is true of your members as well. That vote was taken, and I believe you were on the wrong side of that issue.

Minister Baird or Minister Nicholson, I'd like to ask if you could maybe give us an idea—

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Point of order....

[An hon. member]

I hope it's genuine.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Go ahead, Mr. Garneau.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes. I believe that I'm being misquoted in the comments made by Mr. Williamson. I would like—

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

I'm afraid that's debate, Mr. Garneau. We'll proceed. The ministers' time is valuable and I think this committee wants to hear their answers to our questions.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I'd like to hear your insight on what life is like in some of these cities in the red zone. We've heard, for example, from Minister Baird about how he has spoken to individuals on the ground about what their needs are, and from Minister Nicholson as well about some of the military requirements and the assistance we're providing to Iraqi and other soldiers.

What's life like on the ground for the citizens who are under ISIL in these areas? I've heard talk of a religious tax, for example. Clearly, there are many people who have been displaced. Could you give us a picture of what's happening in this red zone?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

There's been a lot of discussion about what you call it. Do you call it ISIS, or do you call it ISIL, or do you call it Daesh? In many respects, it exhibits all the attributes of a cult, even a death cult. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to their view of Islam, to their view of the world, is an enemy. The horrific crimes undertaken against women—women being sold into slavery—and against people, with as many as hundreds at a time being summarily executed.... It must be, for some, a living hell.

In some parts of the country you are seeing ISIL providing government services, perhaps in a way that the central government of Baghdad didn't. That's why it's tremendously important for us to try to liberate the people in these affected areas by cutting off the funding to ISIL and stopping more foreign fighters from making their way there, by the air mission, for example, the training mission, and the advise and assist role to help the Iraqi forces to be able to liberate these people on the ground.

But again, I come back to that inclusiveness. It is tremendously important. We have to try to detach the Sunni minority from anyone who has any sympathies with this death cult. It's tremendously important. The role of the Shia militias is incredibly counterproductive and has done the opposite of winning friends.

I think the most scary part, not just for the people who live in these areas but for the rest of the world, is that ISIL, through using new communications technologies, through the Internet, is seeking to recruit and inspire people around the world, whether they be here in Ottawa, or in the streets of Paris, or in Belgium. That poses a huge risk, frankly, not just to the people of Syria and Iraq or the people of the region but to the civilized world. In many respects, it's a war against modernity, and anyone who doesn't accept their view of the world is living in fear.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

And it's not just Christians who are persecuted. It's Muslims killing Muslims in many cases as well. It is a regime of terror, of evil, attempting to subjugate the whole area and to impose an evil doctrine.