National Defence Committee on Nov. 27th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Good morning, and welcome to the national defence committee clause-by-clause study of Bill C-77.

I'd like to welcome Colonel Stephen Strickey, Lieutenant-Colonel Geneviève Lortie and Major Karl Lacharité.

Much of this will be observation. You may get involved at some point. Many of the members here have never done clause-by-clause, so we'll be patient with those who have not. Some veterans on the other side of the table have done it many times. We'll go as slowly as we need to, to get this right the first time.

Pursuant to order of reference of Monday, October 15, 2018, this is clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-77, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

On a point of order, just so I know the process, are we going to go through this clause by clause until we get to the appropriate amendments at each clause?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

That's correct.

What you'll see me do, just so you know—and I'm sure you've done it in the past as chair—where there are long chunks of clauses with no amendments, I'll probably ask you to blast through a bunch of things that no one has even asked you to talk about so we can get through this as quickly as we need to.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That's a good idea.

(Clause 1 agreed to on division)

(On clause 2)

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Clause 2 has an amendment. Who wants to speak to LIB-1?

Mr. Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

The LIB-1 amendment proposes that Bill C-77, in clause 2, be amended by replacing, in the French version, line 36 on page 3 with the following:qui est accusé ou déclaré coupable de l'infraction ou qui

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Is there any discussion?

(Amendment agreed to)

(Clause 2 as amended agreed to)

(Clause 3 agreed to)

(On clause 4)

There's an amendment to clause 4. I'll give Mr. Bezan a second to talk to CPC-1.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We're suggesting in CPC-1 that clause 4 be amended by deleting lines 12 to 16 on page 4.

As you know, we heard from a couple of our witnesses that a code of service discipline already exists. There is concern that subsection 55(2) deals with reserves. It talks about all military members, but there is no exemption provided for reserves.

Also section 60 of the National Defence Act already stipulates that a reserve member is subject to the code of service discipline when they are undergoing training or are on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft at the base.

I believe it was recommended by both the Quebec bar association and retired Lieutenant-Colonel Perron that subsection 55(2) be deleted or be redrafted. I'm proposing that we delete it, since the code of service discipline will cover this anyway. I think it takes into consideration what we heard from witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

The position of the Liberal members is that this amendment essentially removes a section of Bill C-77 that codifies the jurisprudence from the Supreme Court decision in Moriarity. In its decision, the court supplies additional clarity. Our position is that this clarity is actually useful to have.

In fact, in Mr. Bezan's second reading speech of October 2018, he cited that decision in his remarks and said that the court “acknowledged that the behaviour of members of the military relates to discipline, efficiency and morale, even when they are not on duty, in uniform or on a military base.” We feel it is that thought, which is really captured by the Moriarity decision, that should be part of the bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In rebuttal to that, that's talking about full-time members.

The problem is regarding reserve members, who have other lives outside of serving with the Canadian Armed Forces. We can't expect that proposed subsection 55(2) should apply to their daily lives in carrying out their work, as well as being a coach of the soccer or hockey team when they're not on duty and only parade every couple of weeks. We have to make an exemption for them.

As we heard from both Lieutenant-Colonel Perron and the Quebec bar association, I feel that this should be either redrafted or deleted. I think the cleanest way to do it is to delete it and deal with this under the code of service discipline, as well as under paragraph 60(1)(c).

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

MP Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, I will circle back briefly one more time.

The court was quite clear that its parameters applied to members regardless of whether or not they're on duty. It would include reserve members as well. We need that additional clarity from the decision to give us the guidance we need.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Do you think that's going to enhance recruitment to our reserve force when they're going to be subject to this 24-7 when they're only serving a few hours a week?

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I think it's just helpful guidance from our highest court. We feel that this level of detail is required in the bill.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I disagree.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Is there any more discussion?

(Amendment negatived)

(Clause 4 agreed to on division)

(Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to on division)

(On clause 7)

We have amendment LIB-2.

Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to move that.

The amendment is that Bill C-77, in clause 7, be amended by replacing, in the French version, lines 17 and 18 on page 5 with the following:

incarcérés dans un pénitencier ou une prison civile;

It's just a housekeeping amendment.

(Amendment agreed to on division)

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We have amendment LIB-3.

Who wants to speak to that?

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I'll speak to this one as well.

The amendment is that Bill C-77, in clause 7, be amended by replacing, in the English version, line 33 on page 7 with the following:

“a penitentiary or civil prison; and”

(Amendment agreed to on division)

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Next is amendment LIB-4.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It's the same type of thing, Mr. Chair.

The amendment is that Bill C-77, in clause 7, be amended by replacing, in the French version, lines 1 and 2 on page 8 with the following:

condamné militaire incarcéré dans un pénitencier ou une prison civile;

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Is there any discussion?

(Amendment agreed to)

Next is amendment LIB-5.

Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I move that Bill C-77, in clause 7, be amended by replacing, in the French version, line 19 on page 10 with the following:

contre d'une personne accusée de cette infraction.