Evidence of meeting #125 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was men.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sandra Perron  Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.
Kristine St-Pierre  Director, The WPS Group
Richard Martel  Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Julie Dzerowicz  Davenport, Lib.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Good afternoon and welcome to the defence committee.

We are going to continue with our study of diversity within the Canadian Armed Forces. We actually haven't been on this topic since October 18, so it's been a while.

I want to welcome our guests. From A New Dynamic Enterprise, we have Sandra Perron, and from the WPS Group, we have Kristine St-Pierre. Thank you both for coming.

I'm going to yield the floor to Ms. Perron. I'll give you up to 10 minutes for your opening remarks. The floor is yours.

3:30 p.m.

Sandra Perron Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Thank you very much for the invitation, ladies and gentlemen.

Thirty-five years ago, I joined the military as a logistics officer, and subsequently became an infantry officer when the Human Rights Tribunal removed all the legal barriers to the employment of women in combat. I say “legal barriers”, because to think that all other barriers were removed is nothing less than a myth.

I won't go into details about my career, first of all because I wrote a bestseller and all the details are in there. It's being made into a movie, and I don't want to sell the punchline. However, the real reason is that the easiest thing for leaders to do is to look back on my experiences and say, “Well, things have changed. That was then; this is now. We don't do those things anymore.”

I want to talk to you about the reactions to my book, because they are very revealing. I received several hundred letters, notes, messages, texts and emails following the publication of my book Out Standing in the Field. I can place all of this correspondence into four categories, which I will share with you.

In the first category are the letters from women who recognize themselves in my story. Every one of them could write her own colourful chapter about a difficult journey marked by hatred, abuse, and rejection. These letters make me very sad, not only because these things are still going on today, but because almost every one of them begins with a request that I keep their comments secret and confidential. They are afraid to tell their story, still today.

The second category is also letters from women, but these women want to reassure me that my struggles were not for naught. They are thriving in their units, well accepted and valued. “It's not perfect,” they say, “yet,” but they are grateful for the road they feel I and others have paved for them. This category always makes me do cartwheels of joy.

The third category are letters from men who have read my book and recognize that they could do a better job defending women, not because we are weak or princesses that need saving, but because they know that for women living in our country today, a country that is considered to be among the best places in the world to live, harassment or inequality complaints can have devastating consequences. I am pleased by this type of letter, because I see that the next women will have allies to help them meet their challenges.

Finally, the fourth and last category is the one that touches me most deeply. It consists of correspondence from men who apologize for the trouble they caused me. They read my book and recognize themselves in it, even if they weren't named. There are only a handful of those letters, but their authors recognize the harm they did to me and the damage they caused. What is remarkable about those letters is that many of these men are still serving in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Given General Vance's commitment to Operation Honour and zero tolerance, these letters signed by men who acknowledge their guilt could well mean the end of their careers. These letters give me great hope and peace of mind, because I know that these men will be better human beings, leaders, and women's champions.

There is no doubt that the CAF has veered towards making military culture more inclusive, more welcoming and more valuing of diversity, but it's too slow. Veering is not enough. We need a hard right.

Providing a soft landing for those who have suffered abuse, giving them a way of reporting sexual misconduct, and providing counselling services and medical attention: All of that is the absolute right thing to do, and the CAF must stay the course.

Hearing stories of abuse is hard and discouraging, but it's a sign that we've created an environment where victims are safe to come forward with their stories. They can tell them from a place of strength instead of a place of resentment.

We can't change what we don't know. We need now to go upstream and prevent these incidents from happening, and the best way to do that is to change the way men perceive women. We must challenge our paradigms in every sphere of training, deployment and HR policy.

Conflicts and generational warfare have greatly evolved since the end of the Cold War. They are complex, fast-evolving missions that require diverse competencies within the deployed battle groups, some of which can best be provided by women. Having women fully integrated and thriving within their combat teams not only reflects the change we wish to see in these failed states, but it will be instrumental in achieving it, for in these violence-plagued areas of the world where women have been abused, victimized, dispossessed and raped, it makes sense to give them hope of what could be and show them what is possible.

Now, I mentioned earlier that the easiest thing for a so-called leader to do is to look back on what went wrong and correct it for the future, but it takes visionary leaders to challenge what we are doing today and ask themselves if we will we be ashamed of this in five, 10, 15 or 20 years.

Let me give you two examples of what it means to challenge our paradigms today.

The first is Silver Cross mothers. Every year, we recognize mothers who have lost children in the service of our country through the appointment of a Silver Cross Mother chosen by the Royal Canadian Legion. This is a precious and valued tradition, one that enables us to remember with great compassion the grief of mothers everywhere who have lost a child in the service of their country.

The time has come to modernize this tradition to be more inclusive of parenthood. There was a time in our history when child-rearing was mostly left to mothers, and often these same mothers were left to do so single-handedly as husbands left for war. Those were the norms, but times have changed. Although we have yet to reach equality, in our society today fathers play an ever-increasing role in their children's lives, and they should not be excluded when we remember the sacrifices made by parents, all parents.

Appointing only women as Silver Cross mothers demeans the role of fathers and contributes to the stigmatization of those who choose to take parental leave or to be a stay-at-home dad. By the same token, it perpetuates the perception that only women bear the responsibilities of raising children or that their contribution is more important. This hurts both men and women, and it's no longer representative of all families. Now some military members have two fathers, a single father or two mothers. How do you choose? Are any of their losses less worthy of recognition? It's time for Silver Cross parents.

The second example is related to the struggle of recruiting women to non-traditional roles in defence and security in the STEM fields. We all need to invest in teaching young girls that they are limitless in their opportunities.

I volunteer with The Memory Project to go into schools and talk to them about veterans. I stand before these kids, third- and fourth-graders, with all my military medals, my parachutist wings, my military bling, and they are still waiting for Major Perron to arrive, because even today our kids have a certain vision of what a veteran looks like. It seems that adults do, too. The Canadian Mint has issued a number of coins in the last three years portraying Canadian heroes: firefighters, police officers and soldiers. All are men. One ambulance driver, a nurse, is a woman. All of them are white. We continue to perpetuate this image. Little girls grow up to consider mainly traditional fields, and then we wonder why we can't achieve our recruiting targets.

In conclusion, I'll leave you with this thought.

The Canadian Armed Forces are not doing everything they could to further diversity and eliminate sexual misconduct. Sometimes they are awkward; sometimes they try so hard that they trip up, but more than anyone, I know the sacrifices our service people make, and not just on the battlefield.

Every two or three years they uproot their families. They have to find a new school, a doctor, and get new licence plates. They lose friends and long-term equity in their homes. They are far away from their families. Our military men and women deserve not only our loyalty, but also our greatest respect and admiration. To them I say: “stay the course”.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you very much for those words.

I'm going to yield the floor now to Ms. St-Pierre.

The floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Kristine St-Pierre Director, The WPS Group

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Perron.

I will be making my presentation in English, but I can answer questions in French.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me.

I am Kristine St-Pierre, director of the WPS Group, which brings together consultants with expertise in gender equality and women, peace and security. Over the past several years, we've been providing specific women, peace and security training to Canadian police officers deploying to international missions. Other work includes conducting gender assessments and developing organizational gender strategies.

I'm also here in my capacity as a member of the steering committee of the Women, Peace and Security Network—Canada, a volunteer network of more than 70 Canadian non-governmental organizations and individuals. The network is committed to two things: promoting and monitoring the efforts of the Government of Canada to implement and support the UN Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security, and providing a forum for exchange and action by Canadian civil society on issues related to women, peace and security.

Over the last few years, the network has been a key interlocutor with the Government of Canada when it comes to the implementation of its national action plan. I've also submitted the network's 2016 DND policy review submission as evidence to the committee.

The views I will present today are my own; however, they include consultations with colleagues, and they are informed by ongoing research and analysis conducted by the Women, Peace and Security Network—Canada.

One of the Canadian Armed Forces diversity strategy objectives is to “inculcate a culture of diversity”, which the strategy says “is to develop the military's organizational culture to be more inclusive and respectful which will demonstrate to Canadian society that the CAF truly values and embraces diversity.” I will focus my remarks today on two considerations related to that objective of inculcating a culture of diversity.

My first consideration relates to the need for an overall policy that encompasses both gender equality and diversity perspectives. DND and the Canadian Armed Forces have set out multiple commitments related to equity, equality and diversity. These include the Employment Equity Act, the legislative commitment to engage in proactive employment practices to increase representation of the four designated groups, including women; commitments under Operation Honour, which seeks to eliminate harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour in the Canadian military; the diversity strategy, aiming to “recognize, embrace and actively promote diversity as a core CAF institutional value”; commitments as part of the defence plan 2018-2023, to incorporate gender perspectives into defence planning, policy and operations; and commitments under the Canadian national action plan on women, peace and security, which focuses on improved governance, training and education, accountability, recruitment, and the integration of gender perspectives into CAF operations.

While these commitments have distinct objectives, they overlap in important ways. The success of Operation Honour in working toward creating an environment that is safe from sexual harassment and discrimination is crucial to the ability of the CAF to recruit more women and more members of diverse groups. The ability to recruit more women is crucial in fulfilling our commitments under the Canadian national action plan on women, peace and security. This national action plan, in turn, provides an important tool for DND and the CAF to incorporate gender perspectives as part of defence planning, policy and operations abroad.

What I believe is needed is an overarching policy framework that defines the full range of commitments relating to gender equality and diversity, including the implementation of the Deschamps report and Operation Honour; Canada's commitments under its national action plan on women, peace and security; commitments related to increased diversity of the CAF, including greater participation by women; using the gender-based analysis plus across policy and operations; and eliminating sexist and homophobic attitudes and practices.

Doing so would be beneficial in several ways. It would ensure greater coherence among the different commitments, as well as among different units and offices within DND and CAF. It would clarify the importance placed on the various commitments, and the linkages among them. It would also facilitate communication at all levels on these matters and send a stronger signal to the public about DND and the CAF’s intentions with regard to equality and diversity.

More importantly, doing so would also send a strong message of support to transformational change in the CAF’s approach to its work—a message that says we’re not only bringing new faces to do the same job, but we view this as an opportunity to change the way it’s always been done—and a willingness to examine the very structures it brings women and other diverse groups into.

My second consideration relates to the need to work towards greater diversity in the CAF, not only because it will make the CAF more effective but also because it’s a matter of equality.

The diversity strategy states that, “as a matter of practice, policy and institutional culture, we recognize, embrace and actively promote diversity as a core CAF institutional value”. However, a quick search shows that both recent CAF statements and media articles related to the diversity strategy make the case for embracing diversity on the basis of improved effectiveness. To be clear, CAF is not the only actor whose message has focused on the benefits to operational effectiveness that diversity and gender perspectives bring.

There is extensive research, especially in other industries and the business community, demonstrating the benefit of a diverse workforce and of having more women in leadership positions. For example, research shows that diverse groups tend to be smarter and make better decisions than do homogeneous ones. Companies with more women in leadership positions tend to do better financially, and business units that are more gender-diverse have better financial outcomes. The U.S. Agency for International Development also notes that “eliminating workplace discrimination against women can increase productivity.” Research shared by the Harvard Business Review shows that corporate diversity leads to greater and faster innovation. In addition, a more diverse employee pool offers improved and more accurate thinking as well as better decision-making skills.

There is no denying that a Canadian soldier who speaks Pashto can be beneficial to an operation in Afghanistan, or that women soldiers may facilitate access to local women or conduct searches of women. But at the same time, it’s important not to lose sight of the human rights and gender equality imperative and ensure that we impart these values to all personnel. Only by doing so in a deliberate and sustained manner will we see a culture change within the Canadian Armed Forces.

Specifically, it is crucial that the pursuit of diversity and the integration of gender perspectives not lead to the instrumentalization of women’s rights. One member of the Women, Peace and Security Network-Canada, Margaret Jenkins, argues in a recent publication that focusing on operational effectiveness:

runs the risk of instrumentalizing women’s participation—the implication is that women are engaged in peace and security because of their distinctive contribution, and if they fail, it is because they were not effective.... Women should be full and equal participants in peace and security because they have a right to the same opportunities as men, not because of what can be potentially gained by their participation.

There are many variables that affect the success and impact of female participation and integration, including persistent gender attitudes and biases that are held by both men and women. It will be extremely difficult to address and change these deeply ingrained attitudes and biases against women and other diverse groups if we don’t instill equality and diversity as core institutional values from the beginning. It should be both the smart thing to do and the right thing to do.

To conclude, I would first like to acknowledge the important and ongoing work being conducted by DND and the CAF when it comes to equality and diversity. I would also like to acknowledge that the goal of inculcating a culture of diversity is a long-term process that will require sustained efforts by all members of the CAF, beginning with the leadership.

In saying that, I would like to end by calling on the importance of the defence community's learning to leverage gender expertise, which the military lacks, from civil society—such as from the Women, Peace and Security Network-Canada and others—to truly develop a nuanced understanding of how they should apply diversity and gender perspectives.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you for your testimony.

Before we get started, I think we have a translation issue where English is coming across on the French channel. Anyway, it's reversed, but it's there, so just push the button.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Just on translation, I know that some of the interpreters are often.... The old facility was a little quieter, but now you have the soundproof glass, so you can speak up and we can hear you. I'm always turning it up and turning it down.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I know everybody here has at least two devices, maybe three, so just double-check that your devices are on silent, because I heard a couple of bells and whistles happening.

For those of you who have never been to committee, this sign means that whoever is speaking needs to start winding down. You will have 30 seconds, so it's not a hard stop. You can do a graceful dismount, tie it all together, and we can move on. I have to keep the conversation going so everyone gets the requisite amount of time.

Having said that, I'm going to yield the floor to MP Spengemann for the first seven minutes of questions.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you very much, Major Perron and Madam St-Pierre, for being here. Thank you for your expertise and your service to our nation. It's very important work.

I want to start by looking at a chart, and I want to thank our analysts for preparing it. It's 2018 data, and it lines up the percentage of women in the armed forces in parallel to visible minorities. As we can expect, as we progress through the ranks, both with respect to women and visible minorities, beginning with privates on the NCO side and then going up into the senior ranks of master warrant officer and chief warrant officer, and from officer cadet on to general, there is a sharp drop-off in the number of women, and also in the number of visible minorities. Embarrassingly, there are only two categories, and it's in the women's rubric where the percentage of 20% is cracked, and that is, again, with 2018 data: female lieutenants, 24.4%, and female officer cadets, 21.1%. Everything else is south of 20%, and then in some ways, when we get into the field of generals, it embarrassingly drops to zero.

I don't want to spend my time on the analysis of data. I'd like both of you to take a moment and qualitatively walk the committee through where the obstacles are that keep women and visible minorities from breaking through into senior ranks, both on the NCO side and on the officer side. Be anecdotal if you can. Each of you probably has some compelling stories or incidents that really could drive home why we don't have more women or visible minorities in senior positions.

3:50 p.m.

Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Sandra Perron

It's a very good question. The other day I was wearing a T-shirt that said, “You owe me 21 cents”, and it's a T-shirt that is meant to provoke discussions about the disparity between the wages of men and women. A military friend of mine said, “Luckily, we don't have that in the military, because equal ranks have equal pay.” I said that when only 10% of the senior officers are women and when 90% of deployed forces are men, it means that women are losing opportunities. Women are staying back and taking care of loved ones, of family, of the elderly, and that is taking a toll on their careers.

If we wonder why women aren't progressing, we should be looking at the number of men taking parental leave and the number of men helping out with elderly care. Still today, according to statistics, close to 70% of elderly care is being done by women. That means they lose opportunities to deploy on exercises, to punch those leadership tickets that will gain them the personnel evaluation reports to get them promoted, and the courses. I think that's a huge contribution to the reason why women are not progressing in the ranks.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you.

Madam St-Pierre.

3:55 p.m.

Director, The WPS Group

Kristine St-Pierre

I obviously agree.

I'd like to add that a lot of research has been done, in terms of barriers to women in the military around the world. Some may be actual barriers or the perception of barriers. We certainly have what Major Perron mentioned, such as the impact of moving on family situations and the perception of a military institution where sexual violence is endemic. That could be a perception, but also a reality. Perception prevents people from joining, but also from moving up.

There is a career penalty for motherhood and the ability to get time off. It's not just the perception because we've read it in the news, but this idea that you have to choose between your career and your family as you go up the ranks becomes even more apparent. There are socially constructed gender norms, like the male-dominated space and the notion that you have to take on masculine traits, that you have to act like a man, in order to be accepted as one of the guys. These factors add up to create an environment that is not always conducive to women wanting to remain. This applies to diverse groups as well, specifically in terms of the LGBTQ2 community. That environment of harassment and discrimination certainly has a role to play.

I think it's extremely important to want to create a conducive environment and address all the commitments that have been identified by DND and the CAF. If these commitments are carried through, all taken together, including a change of mindset and a change of culture, that could lead to some changes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Major Perron, you served as Canada's first female infantry officer. I don't know if that came out in your opening remarks, but that is obviously to your credit.

I want to spend a moment on intersectionalities and women of visible minority status. We talk a lot about the LGBTQ2 community, but we talk less about Canadians of non-binary gender identity or expression. Do we need to pay extra attention, and how important is that work, in juxtaposition to gender equality and visible minorities as categories of their own?

3:55 p.m.

Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Sandra Perron

The easy answer is that, absolutely, we need to spend more time and reflect on that more. For many, it's so far outside their comfort zone. Many who are in the traditional culture have never been exposed to that. We need to talk about it, expose them, and we need to review our paradigms, with regard to all non-binary issues.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's my time.

Thank you, both.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you.

Next, we have MP Gallant.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My first questions are for Ms. Perron.

In his fall 2018 report, the Auditor General was particularly critical of Operation Honour, citing fragmented briefings and teachings, insufficient victim support and a lack of necessary respect for victims.

Would you provide the committee with your own thoughts on the Auditor General's report and on Operation Honour?

4 p.m.

Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Sandra Perron

I think Operation Honour is the necessary evil in the sense that it has propelled us to move forward and explore issues. I do a lot of presentations to battalions, combat units, and the feeling that I'm getting is not to push Operation Honour on them. They're sick and tired of hearing about it. The backlash against women is atrocious. They feel it's because of them that they have to sit through a harassment briefing, so it's had a lot of negative impact, as well as positive. It's brought things into the open.

You cannot order soldiers to respect women, LGBT, visible minorities or any DGM group. You have to create situations where a light will appear in their mind and they'll say, “Wow, luckily we have women on board”, women in their platoons who can push through this exercise in a certain way.

If we design our training so that women are valued, with scenarios like Afghanistan or Haiti, where women get to be the leaders in talking to the women who are on the belligerents' side so they can connect, men are going to see that if they didn't have women, they wouldn't be getting this information, this precious intelligence. We don't do that. We force them to respect women, and then we design obstacle courses that physically highlight women's weaknesses instead of their strengths.

That's what I mean by changing the paradigms.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Have you ever heard Op Honour referred to as “hop on 'er”?

4 p.m.

Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Sandra Perron

Too many times to count.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Which regiment were you with?

4 p.m.

Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Sandra Perron

It was the Royal 22e Régiment.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

I did not read your book, but maybe I will, if my curiosity is sufficiently piqued. In the briefing, you mentioned that you underwent many instances of harassment, sexual abuse and rape.

Under what kind of circumstances was such an attack as rape allowed to happen to you? It happens to other women as well. It is still happening. What are the kinds of circumstances that put women in this type of vulnerable situation?

4 p.m.

Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Sandra Perron

I don't think there's any one kind of circumstance. There are a range of situations where women get abused, harassed and, yes, raped. I'm not here to talk about my own situation, but I'm getting letters from women who have experienced a range of those sexual misconducts. It's different for every one of them. Sometimes they trust their leader. Sometimes they trust the colleagues they will be deploying to war with and put themselves in a situation where they become vulnerable and are abused.

I don't think there is one answer to a situation that happens more to these women than anywhere else, in any other regiment, for that matter.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Prior to Operation Honour being officially rolled out, and prior to the 2015 election, our committee was told over and over again by women in the military that whatever they did, whatever the proposed solution, they had to take the chain of command out of the investigation and the policing of the whole case.

Based on what we have now, is that still necessary to push for, taking the chain of command out of the investigation and the follow-up once an incident has been reported to the military police?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Partner, A New Dynamic Enterprise Inc.

Sandra Perron

Absolutely, I think it's crucial.

The victims of sexual abuse or sexual misconduct are often in a position where they have to report their case to a senior officer or leader who has not been trained in dealing with investigative and interviewing processes for victims of sexual misconduct. At different levels there are blockages, perceptions and preconceived notions of women coming forward. It's also devastating to their career.

There's a reason women write to me and say, “Don't tell this to anybody.” They are still afraid of the chain of command.