National Defence Committee on Jan. 31st, 2019

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

One of the aspects of the report dealt with victims and duty to report, and the fact that there really wasn't a lot of support for victims. In fact, what they have told me is that when they have come forward and they have gone through the examination and the rape kit and everything else, they are the ones who are pulled out of the unit and segregated, and their training stops. They are not allowed to talk about what happened; they are not allowed to warn the other women, but they are assured that the other women in the unit are being told. Then they find out subsequently that no one has warned them, so they don't know if this kind of activity has continued because the person hasn't been arrested yet.

Is this the sort of thing you're hearing in the correspondence you receive?

[Sandra Perron]

Absolutely. It's not just in correspondence; I have close friends who have gone through it. They have been removed from their unit and put to work in a different section, sometimes in the same building or on the same floor as their aggressor. Those are anecdotes I've heard before from some people who are in my close circle of friends.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

Given this validation—because I've heard it, but now we're hearing it from witnesses as well—I would like to move a motion that the Auditor General appear before the Commons committee before March 31, 2019 concerning his fall 2018 report 3, “Canada's Fighter Force—National Defence”, and report 5, “Inappropriate Sexual Behaviour—Canadian Armed Forces”, and that his appearance be televised.

We will make sure we give you notice, too, if this motion passes and we're able to have the Auditor General here and pose questions, because he has written to this committee and indicated that he would like to appear and answer our questions.

I have moved the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

It's a notice of motion.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

No, she moved the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

The expert opinion from the clerk is that you had a similar motion that was defeated before. This particular motion, given where we are today, can serve as notice of motion, but you can't move it today, given what we're here to talk about.

I accept this as notice of motion, and in the next meeting we can certainly vote on that.

Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Just on that, Mr. Chair, because the motion is more substantive than the previous motion that was submitted, and it was moved during a discussion that's very germane to the study we're doing right now and the testimony that we just heard, and the AG's report has been mentioned, I believe it is admissible to be moved at this point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I appreciate your opinion, but it is my ruling that it will serve as a notice of motion.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

There's no use challenging the chair at this point because it would just get defeated.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The motion is in order to be moved right now because it is part of the discussion. We've been discussing the Auditor General's report—

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

No, it's not. Madam Gallant, I've ruled on this. This is going to serve as a notice of motion. I'm happy to take that, and 48 hours from now, which will be at the next meeting, we can have a discussion on whether or not this is going to hit the floor.

Next up for five minutes is MP Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

Great. I have only five minutes. I have too many questions.

I want to go back to my question where I left off. Sponsorship may be at or above a certain level, and mentorship in the lower ranks. When you look at women, would you say that everybody above a lieutenant-colonel should be sponsored? What would be the recommendation there?

[Sandra Perron]

It depends on which trade. There are units that have fewer women than others, and those should specifically be targeted for career progression and sponsorship. In the combat arms, anything above major would be open for sponsorship, and in all the other trades, probably lieutenant-colonel and above, senior officers.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

We are so far behind. It's as if society is over here and the military is over there with women in more senior positions—not in all cases, but in some cases. I'm trying to look at what transformational changes we can make. Sponsorship in the upper levels, I think, could be one.

[Sandra Perron]

Yes, absolutely.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

The other thing I was thinking of just as we were talking is that in the business world, when a new CEO comes in, they usually put together their own team. It's not 100% their own team, but they move people into position. Then they put in incentives for them to achieve certain objectives. It's financial, but it could also be related to the number of women or visible minorities.

You both talked a lot about how leadership is crucial, and how there's no way we're going to get transformational change without the right leadership. I think you, Ms. St-Pierre, mentioned that a number of leaders, at the different levels, don't necessarily believe in it, at this point. How do we get the right leaders in place? One, is there the same capability for the head of the armed forces to put their key leaders into place? Two, do they provide incentives around the increase in the number of women in the different areas?

[Sandra Perron]

No, I wouldn't say anyone is empowered to put their own teams in place. I think, at the very high level, they are pushing their teams to certain areas. At the unit level, they don't have much say on who comes to them to be part of their unit and be leaders in their unit. They are not held accountable for the career progression or the success of their members, and definitely they should be. I agree with you.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

Okay.

Do you have anything to add to this?

[Kristine St-Pierre]

I think it could be part of.... Just as in the business world or in any organization in terms of performance management or promotion, they could look at these various commitments and ask, “Were you able to do this or that in terms of commitments to diversity and equality?”—make it part of the leader's accountability.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

I'm a bit of the opposite. I worked in very male-dominated roles. I've adopted a lot of male attributes. In the business world, we provide coaching once you're past a certain level to help figure out some unconscious biases, and also to figure out what some of your weaknesses might be in progressing to a much higher level. Does that exist right now in the military at the senior levels? Do you know?

[Sandra Perron]

Some coaching courses are offered to the military, but there's nothing current that I know of that I would say is a standard operating procedure at a certain level. I think it would be brilliant.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

You have a lot of people who, I think, genuinely think that they're okay, but they're not necessarily okay. But you can't see it, so you almost can't blame them because they can't see it. They need someone to shake it up and to say something in front of them. Again, it really has to be at a certain leadership level and above.

My last question is this. I was thinking about benefits of women in the military, and whether we have documented or have data about how having more women in the military actually increased our capacity to do our jobs. Do we have that data? Do we have that documentation? It's beyond just women being able to go into war conflict zones, and other women being more comfortable talking to them. I think we actually expand the overall capacity of our Canadian Armed Forces, but do we have any type of documentation, research, data or anything that might help to articulate that?

[Kristine St-Pierre]

I think that, especially in terms of the United Nations and UN peacekeeping, there has been a lot of research on the value of having women's meaningful voices at the table, whether it's peace processes, negotiation, mediation or peacekeeping operations. I think there is data that we can pull from that.

We talk about critical mass, and I know you talked about that in October. I think having a critical mass, certainly, is quite important in terms of changing that environment and changing that culture, but it also needs to be supported by all these other commitments and that change. The 30% won't just get to that change. There will be more voices to voice opinions, desires and the need for change, but there need to be those structures and policies in place as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thanks.

MP Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I want to get back to the question I asked before. We were talking about mentorship.

When you look at Canada.... There are other countries in the world that have other programs in place, better participation of women, and more diversity within their armed forces.

Ms. St-Pierre, in the work you've been doing, looking at other countries, who should be mentoring Canada? Who has best practices that we should be adopting?